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Full text of "Commission meeting[s]"

MARYLAND & RARE BOOK ROOM 
UNlVERSi • LIBRARX 

COLLEGE | 



*X> NOT C1RCULATF 



Digitized by the Internet Archive 
in 2013 



http://archive.org/details/commissionmeetin12mary 



■ 

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN PROBLEMS 
HELD AT GOUCHER COLLEGE 
TOWSON, MARYLAND 

Friday, December 9, 1966 
Saturday, December 10, 1966 



VOLUME XII 



vo/- JtL 
F0J-/O 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COiMMISSION 



WILLIAM PRESTON LANE, JR. 
JJotwrcny Chairman 

II. VERNON ENEY 

Clin inn an 

ROBERT J. MARTINEAU 
Secretary 



E. DALE ADK1NS, JR. 

HARRY BARD 

CALHOUN BOND 

ELSBETH LEVY BOTIIE 

FRANKLIN L. BURDETTE 

RICHARD W. CASE 

HAL C. B. CLAGETT 

CHARLES DELLA 

MRS. MAURICE P. FREEDLANDER 

JAMES O'C. GENTRY 

JOHN R. HARGROVE 



STANFORD HOFF 
MARTIN 7 D.JENKINS 
CLARENCE W. MILES 
EDWARD T MILLER 
CHARLES MINDEL 
JOHN W. MITCHELL 
E. PHILLIP SAYRE 
ALFRED L. SCANLAN 
L. MERCER SMITH 
MELVIN J. SYKES 
FURMAN L. TEMPLETON 
WILLIAM C. WALSH ' 



• C ( 



c c * 



JOHN C. BROOKS 
Executive Director 

KALMAN R. HETTLEMAN 

Assistant to the Executive Director 

v x x * * v x 1: 



William Prescott Allen (Resigned January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. (Resigned May 13, 19 66) 
Walter R. Haile (Resigned December 20, 19 66) 
William J. McWilliams (Resigned September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. (Resigned August 2, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. (Resigned July 12, 1966) 



X * X * X X * X 



700 Mercantile Trust Building 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMM] SSION 
COMMITTEES 



COMMITTEE ON ELECTIVE FRANCHIJ 
AND DECLARAT IO N OF RIGHTS 

James O'C. Gentry, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
July 12, 1966) 
Charles Delia 
Leah S. Frecdlander 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Stanford Hoff 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lev/is D. Asper, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON 'Jill; EXECUTIVE 
DEPA RTMENT 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Charles Mindel 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Garrett Power, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served as Chairman until 
July 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

Harry Bard, Chairman 

Charles Delia 

Edward T. Miller 

Charles Mindel 

Alfred L. Scanlan 

John H. Michener, Reporter 

(appointed on September 12, 1966) 



Martin D. Jenkins 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Alexander Harvey, II 
(served as Reporter until 
September 12, 19 66) 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 
DEPARTMENT 

Robert J. Martineau, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
August 2, 1966) 
Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Clarence W. Miles 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 






12 

Lawrence F. Rodowsky, 



1966) 
Repor . 



Richard W. Case 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 

(served as Chairman until 
September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 

(served as Chairman from 
September 10, 19 6 5 to 
August 2, 19 66) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 

(served until July 12, 19 66) 
E. Phillip Sayre 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
L. Mercer Smith 

(served until June 6, 19 66 
William C. Walsh 

(served until June 6, 1966) 






COMMITTEE ON STATE FINANCE 

AND TAXA TION 

Richard W. Case, Chairman 

■Calhoun Bond 

Stanford Hoff 

Martin D. Jenkins 

L. Mercer Smith 

Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 



committee on 

provi •' 

Elsbeth Levy Bo the, ChaJ 
Leah s. Freedlander 

James O'C. Gentry 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Lewis A. Noonborg, Reporter 

(appointed February 26, 19C6 



Harry Bard 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Charles Mindel 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON POLITICAL 

SUBDIVISIONS AND LOCAL 

LEGISLATION 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Chairman 
(appointed Cheiirman on 

December 2, 1965) 
Franklin L. Burdette 
Leah S. Freedlander 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served as Chairman until 

December 2, 19 65) 
L. Mercer Smith 
John B. Howard, Reporter 
(appointed on May 12, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5,19 6 6 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 196 6 

to December 20, 1966) 
Edward T. Miller 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Frank A. DeCosta, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 22, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STYLE 

Franklin L. Burdette, Chairmaj 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 

Harry Bard 

Richard W. Case 

Martin D. Jenkins 

Margaret Kostritsky, Reporte: 



E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William Prescott Allen 

(served until January 5, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 

(served from July 12, 
December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 

(served until September 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 

(served until August 2, 
Furman L. Templeton 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
John Martin Jones, Jr. 

(served as Reporter until 
February 23, 1966) 



1966 to 

10, 1965) 
1966) 



Calhoun Bond 

(served until June 6, 19 66) 
Hal C. B. Clagett 
(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON CON VENTION PRO CEDU ] 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Chairman 
Hal C. B. Clagett 

J ame s O ' C . Ge n try 

Robert J. Martineau 

Edward T. Miller 

John W. Mitchell 

(appointed on November 9, 1966) 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



Franklin L. Burdette 
(served until June 
Charles Delia 
(served until June 
Stanford Hoff 
(served until June 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served until June 
George L. Russell, 
(served until June 



6, 


1966) 


6, 


1966) 


6, 


1966) 


6, 
Jr 
6, 


1966) 
1966) 



THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN GOVERNMENTS 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 



Annexation 



Louis Azrael 

Honorable Louis L. 
Goldstein 



Page 



117 



148 (Of city proper- 
ty) 



Classification 



Herbert G. Bailey 
Dr. John Bebout 
Dr. Carlton Chute 
Hal C. B. Clagett 
William Colman 
H. Vernon Eney 

H. Vernon Eney 
Luther Gulick 
Luther Gulick 

Samuel Humes 

John Keith 

John Keith 

Dr. Otto F. Kraushaar 

Dr. Robert D. Loevy 

William L. Marbury 

Walter Sondheim, Jr. 



193 

194 
191 
302 
306 

177 (And regional 

government) 

305 

193 (By population) 

302, 305, 
310 

309, 310 

178 (In Texas) 
306 

301 
182 

170 (Possible 

litigation) 

171 (Problems of 

changing) 



.*■• 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Commission 
Proposals 



Dr. John Bebout 
H. Vernon Eney 

H. Vernon Eney 
H. Vernon Eney 



Page 

55 
36 

42 

136 



(Function of 
Commission) 



(Re: combining 
counties) 



Consolidation 
of Units 



Dr. John Bebout 

Honorable Bennett 
Crain, Jr. 

Charles L. Benton 

Charles Horsky 

H. Vernon Eney 



239 


(Wicomico 




County) 


239 




419 




141 


(Authority) 


137 


(Fiscal effects) 



County and Local 
Legislation 



H. Vernon Eney 
Luther Gulick 



171 
173, 308 



County Unit 



Dr. Carlton Chute 



152 



Flexibility 



Hal C. B. Clagett 



William Colman 



356 



262 



(Mandating form 
of government) 



.'■ 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Flexibility 
(Continued) 



General 



William Colman 



Page 



272 



(Legislative 
flexibility) 



Luther Gulick 


278 




Royce Hanson 


123 




Honorable Gladys Noon 
Spellman 


314 


(Threat of leg- 
islative 
inaction) 



Honorable Spiro T. Agnew 29 

Honorable Louis L. 

Goldstein 149 

Howard Murphy 107 



Governor J. Millard Tawes 



(Political 
reality) 



Government 
Structure 



H. Vernon Eney 



31 (Role of 

Constitution) 



Home Rule and 
Broad Grant 
of Power 



Dr. John Bebout 

John C. Brooks 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

William Colman 

Dr. Paul D. Cooper 

Dr. Paul D. Cooper 

Honorable Bennett 
Crain, Jr. 



164 
156 
334 
311 
320 
323 



(Legal problems) 
(Home rule) 



(Fiscal effects) 



167 (Home rule and 

express powers) 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Home Rule and 
Broad Grant 
of Power 
(Continued) 



Page 



Francis X. Gallagher 
Mrs. Janet Hoffman 

John Keith 

John Keith 

William L. Marbury 
William L. Marbury 

Honorable David Scull 



196 


(Present law) 


162 


(Withdrawing 




power) 


223 


(Delegation of 




power) 


311 


(Legislative 




interference) 


159 


(Home rule) 


163 


(Withdrawing 




power) 



138 



Intergovernmental 
Relations 



William Colman 
H. Vernon Eney 

John Keith 

Honorable Gladys Noon 
Spellman 



258 
142 

82 



(Cooperation 
provisions) 



315 (Jurisdiction) 



Lending State 
Credit 



Dr. Carlton Chute 
Dr. Paul D. Cooper 
Paul S. Sarbanes 
E. Phillip Sayre 



327 
326 
327 
324 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Length of 
Convention 



Dr. Carlton Chute 
H. Vernon Eney 



Page 

363 
362 



Local 

Government 



H. Vernon Eney 



Robert F. Steadman 



224 (County and 
municipal 
powers) 

329 (Maryland) 



Maryland Port 
Authority 



H. Vernon Eney 
William L. Marbury 



16 
242 



Megalopolis 



Dr. Carlton Chute 

H. Vernon Eney 
James A. Norton 



62 

31 
87 



(Corridor 

development) 



Metropolitan 

Area Government 
and Development 



Mayor Beverly Briley 

Mayor Beverly Briley 
Mayor Beverly Briley 



205 (Municipal home 
rule -- 
Tennessee) 

208, 218 (Tennessee) 

336 (Tennessee 

financial 
savings) 



.'• 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Metropolitan 

Area Government 
and Development 
(Continued) 



Page 



Dr. Lorene Cumming 



Francis X. Gallagher 

Luther Gulick 

Charles Horsky 

Samuel Humes 

Dr. Victor Jones 
Dr. Victor Jones 

John Keith 

John Keith 



Honorable Edward S. 
Northrop 



64, 111, 

117 (Metrooolitan 

government -- 

Toronto, 

Ontario) 

8 (Baltimore metro- 
politan area) 

73 (Metropolitan 

develoDment) 

5 (Washington metro- 
politan area) 

294 (Council of 

Governments) 

76 (California) 

128 (Metropolitan 
government) 

168 (Administrative 
board) 

227 (Metropolitan 

government — 
New York) 



248 (Washington 

Council of 
Governments) 



Multiplicity of 
Governments 



Walter Sondheim, Jr 



252 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 
Municipalities 



Page 



Dr. John Bebout 

Charles L. Benton 
Raymond G. Boileau 
Dr. Franklin L. Burdetb 
Hal C. B. Clagett 



Honorable Bennett 
Crain, Jr. 

H. Vernon Eney 

H. Vernon Eney 

Mrs. Janet Hoffman 

Dr. Victor Jones 

Dr. Robert D. Loevy 

James A. Norton 

Honorable Gladys Noon 
Spellman 

Honorable David Scull 

Robert F. Steadman 



187 


(Municipal 






incorporation) 


194 






94 






e 84 






236, 237 


t 




238 







236, 237 

198 (Status) 

234, 238 

229 (Maryland) 

232 (Supplementing) 



196 




186 


(Home rule) 


189 


(Prince George's 
County) 



190 



333 



(Prince George's 
County) 



Overlapping Local 
and State 
Problems 



Dr. John Bebout 



Dr. Paul D. Cooper 



180 
320 



(State responsi 
bility) 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 

Overlapping Local 
and State 
Problems 
(Continued) 



Paqe 



H. Vernon Eney 
Luther Gulick 
John Keith 

John Keith 

Honorable David Scull 



181 




281 




166 


(State plenary 




power) 



285 (Dividing 

resoonsi bility) 

140. (Problems of 
poverty) 



Public Education 
and the 
Constitution 



Dr. Harry Bard 

Dr. John Bebout 

Dr. John Bebout 

Dr. John Bebout 

Dr. Carlton Chute 

Dr. Carlton Chute 

Dr. Carlton Chute 



Honorable Bennett 
Crain, Jr. 



H. Vernon Eney 
H. Vernon Eney 



345 

352 

358 (Need for 

flexibility) 

366 (Use of public 
funds) 



340, 348 



356 (Flexibility 

in discussion) 

364 (Use of public 
funds) 



251 

359 
362 



(Public 

information) 



(Use of public 
funds) 



*/* 



Howard Murphy 



346 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Subject 
Referendum 



Herbert G. Bailey 
Charles L. Benton 

Dr. John Bebout 

Honorable Thomas 
D'Alesandro, III 

H. Vernon Eney 

Francis X. Gallagher 
Royce Hanson 
Samuel Humes 

Dr. Victor Jones 
Dr. Otto F. Kraushaar 
William L. Marbury 
Robert F. Steadman 



Page 



109 



95 , 98 (Combining 

counties) 

268 



105 
97 

271 
124 
100 

126 
272 
267 
331 



(Boundary 
change) 



(Baltimore 
County) 



.j" 



Regional 

Authorities 



Honorable Edward S 
Northrop 

Honorable Edward S 
Northrop 



132 (Existing 

authorities) 



253 (Existing 

councils) 



Regional 
Government 



Dr. John Bebout 



Charles L. Benton 



273 (Regional 

boundaries) 

200 (Local 

initiative) 



SUBJECT INDEX 



10 



Subject 

Regional 
Government 
(Continued) 



Page 



John C. Brooks 


144 


(Present 

constitutional 
provisions) 


John C. Brooks 


146 


(Establishment) 


John C. Brooks 


274 


(Regional govern- 
ment and 
authorities) 


Hal C. B. Clagett 


273 


(Powers) 


William Colman 


268 


(Reaional govern- 



Dr. Paul D. Cooper 

Honorable Thomas 
D'Alesandro, III 

Conley H. Dillon 

H. Vernon Eney 
H. Vernon Eney 
H. Vernon Eney 
Luther Gulick 
Royce Hanson 
Mrs. Janet Hoffman 



ment and 

legislative 

authority) 

317 (Legislative 

initiative) 



135 (Defining 

questions) 

265 (Coordination 

with federal 
programs) 

130 (Establishment 
and powers) 

288, 291, 

292 (Establishment) 

294 (County role in 

establishment) 

235 (Creating 

districts) 

119 (Representative 
government) 

110 (Legislative 
role) 



11 



Subject 

Regional 
Government 
(Continued) 



SUBJECT INDEX 



Page 



Senator Harry R. 


Hughes 


299 


(Legislative 
action) 


Samuel Humes 




100 


(Problems) 


Samuel Humes 




316 


(Regional 

organization) 


Dr. Victor Jones 




269 


(Evolution) 


John Keith 




293 


(County role) 


William L. Marbury 


102 


(Outside 








control) 



William L. Marbury 

Honorable Edward S. 
Northrop 

Dr. Clinton I. Winslow 



130 

296 (Establishment) 
270 (Establishment) 



State 

Constitutions 



State Financing 
Local 
Government 



Dr. Carlton Chute 
Dr. Carlton Chute 



Hal C. B. Clagett 
Dr. Paul D. Cooper 

Honorable Thomas 
D'Alesandro, III 

John Keith 



Honorable Edward S 
Northrop 



59 (Missouri) 
61 (New York) 



256 

321 (Cooper-Huqhes) 



105 



287 



252 



(Assessable 
tax base) 

(Collecting 
revenues) 



SUBJECT INDEX 



12 



Subject 

Utilities and 
Urban Services 



Charles L. Benton 
Mayor Beverly Briley 

H. Vernon Eney 
Honorable Milton Millon 
James A. Norton 
Robert Young 



Page 

222 (Baltimore) 
214, 220 



(Tennessee) 

228 (Present county 
services) 

192 (Municipal 

services) 

89 (Housing and 
education) 

255 (California) 



Unincorporated 
Areas 



Hal C. B. Clagett 



240 



THE GOUCHER CONFERENCE ON iMETROPOLITAN PROBLEMS 

Dr. Luther Gulich of the Institute of Public Administration has 

long influenced the development of ideas stressing the 

need for metropolitan solutions within a governmental 

framework . 
Dr. John Bebout has served as consultant to the Alaska Constitution 

Convention and as Temporary Chairman of the New York Constitutional 

Convention Commission (1959). 
Dr. James A. Norton, Director of the Greater Cleveland Association 

and editor of Metro . 
Dr. Norton Long, Professor of Political Science, Brandeis 

University, whose major field of interest has been local, 

regional, and state government. 
Dr. Lome Cumming, of the Department of Municipal Affairs, Toronto; 

long associated with the development of the federated 

governments in Toronto. 
Dr. Victor Jones, Professor of Political Science, University of 

California at Berkeley; one of the most active proponents of 

metropolitan government. 
Dr. Carlton Chute, Professor of Public Administration, New York 

University, who has developed studies of the corrider development 

along the eastern seaboard. 
Dr. William Colman, Director of the Advisory Commission on Inter- 
governmental Relations . 
Mayor Beverly Briley, first Mayor of the consolidated Nashville-Davidson 

County, Tennessee. 
John Keith, Executive Vice President, Regional Plan Association 



THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN GOVERNMENTS 



INDEX 



Page 

Honorable Spiro T. Agnew 29 

Louis Azrael 117 

Herbert G. Bailey 109 

193 
Dr. Harry Bard 345 



Dr. John Bebout 



Charles L. Benton 



55 
164 
180 

187 

194 
239 

268 
273 
352 

358 

366 

95 

98 



Subject 

General message 

Annexation 

Referendum 

Classification 

Public education and the 
Constitution 

Evaluation of proposals 

Legal problems of powers 

Overlap of local and state 
problems 

County role in municipal 
incorporation 

Classification 

City-county consolidation, 
Wicomico County 

Referendum 

Creating regional boundaries 

Public education and the 
Constitution 

Need for flexibility in 
public discussion 

Public funds for public 
information 

Referendum in combining 
counties 

Referendum in combining 
counties 



INDEX 



Charles L. Benton 
(Continued) 



Raymond G. Boileau 
Mayor Beverly Briley 



Page 
119 
194 
200 

222 
94 

205 

208, 218 

214, 220 
336 

144 

146 

156 
274 

Dr. Franklin L. Burdette 184 



John C. Brooks 



Dr. Carlton Chute 



59 

61 

62 

152 

191 



Subject 

Consolidation of units 

Municipal corporations 

Local initiative in regional 
government 

Baltimore utilities 

Role of the municipality 

Tennessee and municipal 
home rule 

Metropolitan government 
planning 

Urban services 

Financial savings and 
reduced tax 

Regional government under 
the present Constitution 

Problems in setting up 
regional government 

Problems of home rule 

Authorities and regional 
government 

Powers of municipal 
corporations 

Missouri Constitution 

New York Constitution 

Corridor development 

Need for county unit 

Classification and 
flexibility 



INDEX 



Dr. Carlton Chute 
(Continued) 



Hal C. B. Clagett 



William Colman 



Page Subject 

327 Lending state credit 

340 , 348 Public education and the 

new Constitution 

356 Flexibility in public 
discussion 

36 3 Length of Convention 

364 Public funds for public 
information 

236 f 237, 

238 Municipalities 

240 Problem of unincorporated 
areas 

256 Taxing provisions 

273 Powers of regional 
government 

302 Classification 

334 Grant of power in the 
Constitution 

356 Mandating form of 
government 

2 58 Intergovernmental relations 

262 Flexibility 

268 Legislative authorities and 
regional government 

272 Legislative flexibility 

306 Classification 

311 Grant of power to local 
governments 



***' 



INDEX 



Dr. Paul D. Cooper 



Page 


317 


320 


321 


322 


323 



Honorable Bennett Crain, 
Jr. 



326 



167 



Dr. Lorene Cumming 



236, 237 
239 
251 



64, 111, 
117 



Subject 

Regional organization, 
legislative initiative 

Effect of broader home rule 

Cooper-Hughes bill 

State responsibility 

Grant of power, fiscal 
effects 

Lending state credit 

County home rule and 
express powers 

Municipalities 

City-county consolidation 

Public information for the 
new Constitution 

Toronto, Ontario, metro- 
politan government 



***' 



Honorable Thomas 
D'Alesandro, III 



Conley H. Dillon 



H. Vernon Eney 



105 

135 

265 

31 

36 
42 



County lines and tax base 
right of referendum 

Defining questions of 
regional government 

Coordinating regions with 
federal programs 

Constitution in establishing 
government structure 
megalopolis 

Functions of Constitutional 
Convention Commission 

Commission proposals 



INDEX 



Page Subject 

H. Vernon Eney 97 Referendum and boundary 

(Continued) change 

130 Setting up regional 

governments, possibility 
of limited powers 

136 Proposal on combining 

counties 

137 Fiscal effects 

142 Intergovernmental and intra- 
governmental cooperation, 
present provisions 

161 Port Authority bill 

171 County and local legislation 

177 Regional government and 
classification 

181 Local and state problems 

198 Status of municipality 

224 County and municipal powers 

228 Present county services 

234, 238 Municipal corporations 

288, 291, 

292 Establishing regional 
government 

294 Establishing regions, 
county role 

305 Classification 

359 Constitution and public 
information 

362 Length of Convention, use 
of public funds 



***' 



INDEX 



Francis X. Gallagher 



Honorable Louis L. 
Goldstein 



Luther Gulick 



Royce Hanson 



Mrs. Janet Hoffman 



Page 

8 

196 

271 



148 


149 


73 


173 


176 


193 


235 


278 


281 


302, 305, 


310 


308 


119 


123 


124 


110 


162 


229 



Subject 

Baltimore metropolitan area 

Power in relation to present 
law 

Action by a majority of 
registered voters 

Annexing city property 

Constitution should look 
ahead 

Metropolitan development 

Flexibility in handling 
local legislation 

Metropolitan Droblems 

Classification by population 

Creating districts 

Flexibility 

Responsibility in solving 
problems 

Classification 

Local legislation 

Representative government 

Flexibility 

Referendum 

Legislative role in creating 
regional government 

Withdrawing powers 

Municipal situation in 
Maryland 



**" 



INDEX 



Charles Horsky 



Page 
15 

141 



Senator Harry R. Hughes 299 



Samuel Humes 



Dr. Victor Jones 



John Keith 



100 



294 
309, 310 
316 
76 

126 
128 

166 

232 

269 

82 

166 
168 
178 
223 



Subject 

Washington Metropolitan 
Authority 

Authority for county 
consolidation 

Legislative action and 
regional government 

Referendum, position of 
Baltimore County, 
problems of regional 
government 

Council of Governments 

Classification 

Regional organization 

California situation, 
metropolitan problems 

Referendum 

Inevitability of metro- 
politan government 

Division of power and 
the courts 

Supplementing the municipal 
corporation 

Evolution of regional 
government 

Interstate and intrastate 
relations 

Plenary power in the State 

Administration board 

Classification in Texas 

Delegation of power 



INDEX 



John Keith 
(Continued) 



Dr. Otto F. Kraushaar 



Dr. Robert D. Loevy 



William L. Marbury 



Mayor Theodore R. 
McKeldin 



Page 
227 
285 

287 
293 

306 
311 

272 
301 
182 
196 
102 

130 
159 
163 

170 

242 

267 

21 



' lbject 

New Yr • y State 

Dividinn governmental 
responsibilities 

Power to collect revenues 

Establishing regions, 
county initiative 

Classification 

Legislative interference 
with grant of power 

Referendum 

Classification 

Classification 

Municipalities 

Outside control for area 
government 

Regional government 

Home rule 

Exemptions by withdrawals 
of power 

Possible litigation, 
classification 

Maryland Port Authority 

Referendum 

Maryland's political sub- 
divisions, local home 
rule 



.** 



Honorable Milton Millon 192 



Municipal services 



INDEX 





Page 


Howard Murphy 


107 




346 


Honorable Edward S. 


132 


Northrop 





James A. Norton 



Paul S. Sarbanes 
E. Phillip Sayre 
Honorable David Scull 



Walter Sondheim, Jr. 



Honorable Gladys Noon 
Spellman 



248 

252 
253 

296 
87 
89 
186 
327 
324 
138 

140 
190 

171 

252 
189 



Subject 

Political realities 

Public education and the 
new Constitution 

Existing regional authorities 

Council of Governments in 
Washington 

Financing local government 

Existing commissions and 
councils 

Creating regional government 

Megalopolis 

Housing and education 

Municipal home rule 

Lending state credit 

Lending state credit 

Problems of Constituion and 
institutions, necessity 
of broad grant 

Problems of poverty 

Municipal problems in Prince 
George's County 

Problems of changing 
classification 

Multiplicity of governments 

Municipalities in Prince 
George's County 



INDEX 



10 



Honorable Gladys Noon 
Soellman 
(Continued) 



Robert F. Steadman 



Governor J. Millard 
Tawes 

Dr. Clinton I. Winslow 

Robert Young 



Page 
314 

315 

329 
331 
333 

4 
270 
255 



Subject 

Threat of legislative 
inaction 

Intrastate intergovern- 
mental jurisdiction 

Maryland local government 

Referendum 

Municipalities 

General statement 

Creating regional government 

California, services 



.'- 



The Goucher Conference on 

Metropolitan Problems 
December 9 and 10, 1966 
Baltimore, Maryland 



STATEMENT OF THE PROBLEM 



Constitutional revision in Maryland has been moving forward 
at an accelerating pace within the past few years. The Consti- 
tutional Convention Commission, appointed by the Governor of 
Maryland in June, 1965, is expected to file its report and 
detailed recommendations next month. The people of the State 
of Maryland, in a special election in September, 1966, over- 
whelmingly (five to one) approved the call of a Constitutional 
Convention to convene in Annapolis on September 12, 19 67. It 
is anticipated that the legislature, at its session which will 
begin next month, will provide for the election of delegates, 
presumably by special election in the spring of 1967. 

The work of the Constitutional Convention Commission in 
the past 16 months has been conducted in public, and preliminary 
reports of the Commission have been made public. They indicate 
that the Commission will propose a far-ranging and, in the minds 
of some, radical revision of the 100 year old State ConstitUion. 
By and large, the Commission will apparently recommend that each 
of the three main branches of government — the executive, the 
legislative and the judicial — be given broader self-governing 
powers and be charged with the responsibility for proper 
exercise of those powers. 



-2- 



Among its recommendations, the Commission is proposing 
substantial changes in the Constitution to make it possible 
to create and empower political subdivisions on a regional 
basis , in an effort to provide for Maryland a governmental 
structure capable of solving the problems of urbanism or 
metropolitanism. These problems, and the responsibilities 
of the State and local governments in their solution, are the 
subject of discussion in this seminar. 

Maryland shares with other urban areas of the United 
States, particularly along the eastern seaboard, the problems 
arising out of the ever increasing trend toward urban living; 
but in Maryland, perhaps to a greater extent than in many of 
its sister states, the problem is accentuated and aggravated. 
The anticipated magalopolis stretching from Boston to Washington 
and perhaps to Richmond, will cut a wide swath through the 
State of Maryland extending from the Pennsylvania line to the 
District of Columbia and Virginia, and probably comprising a 
third of the entire area of the State. Within this belt there 
already exist two highly urbanized areas whose centers are 
only 40 miles apart, namely, Baltimore and Washington. The 
population in the area between these two cities is among the 
fastest growing in the country, and the forecasts indicate 
that in the not too distant future the metropolitan areas of 
Baltimore and Washington may well become one. 

The emphasis for political subdivisions in Maryland has 
traditionally been on the counties. Baltimore County, the 
largest and most populous in the State, has no incorporated 



cities or towns whatsoever. Within the State there is only 
one large city, Baltimore, and it is, and for more than 100 
years has been, an independent city. Baltimore City is not 
located within any county. The remainder of the State 
contains only 158 municipalities, of which 123 are of less 
than 2500 inhabitants each. There have been no new 
municipalities for at least ten years, perhaps because by 
statute in Maryland new municipalities cannot be formed except 
with the consent of the county within which they are located. 

The necessity of providing adequately in metropolitan 
areas for water, sanitary sewers, storm sewers, mass 
transportation and similar facilities traditionally thought 
of as the most pressing problems of highly urbanized communities 
continue to be urgent and pressing, but in today's modern society 
people expect and demand of their metropolitan area governments 
a much broader range of activities every increasing in scope, 
such as cultural facilities, housing, recreational facilities 
and areas, land use planning to control density of development 
and to provide open space for living and breathing, air and 
water pollution control, and the myriad of other matters of 
particular concern to the urban dweller. Intelligent planning 
of governmental structures in metropolitan areas for the future 
must take cognizance of these factors. 

There has been attempts to solve the problems of 
metropolitan areas in Maryland on a purely voluntary cooperative 
basis by the political subdivisions immediately concerned. These 
efforts have been conspicuous by their lack of success. It is 



obvious that a new approach is needed, but there is a wide 
diversity of opinion as to the best approach. The recommendations 
of the Constitutional Convention Commission are bound to be the 
subject of much controversy. It is hoped that the discussions 
at this seminar will furnish a diologue of informed opinion for 
the ultimate assistance and guidance of the Constitutional 
Convention. 



THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN PROBLEMS HELD AT 

OOUCHER COLLEGE, TOWSON , MARYLAND 

December 9 and 10, 1966 



ISSUES AND QUESTIONS 

I. Counties. 

A. Is there a need for the county as a unit of govern- 
ment? 

B. Is there a need for a general grant of power to the 
county unit? 

C. Definition of "home rule". 

1. What is the need for home rule? 

2. The form of the grant of power to the county. 

(a) Grant of enumerated powers by the 
Constitution or by the legislature. 

(b) Grant of power to exercise control over 
"local" affairs. 

(c) Broad grant of powers. 

3. What is the importance of a prohibition against 
local legislation? 

H. Is there a need for classification of counties? 

(a) Basis for classification. 

(b) Should there be a maximum number of 
classes? 

(c) Should there be a minimum number of 
participants in a class? 

D. What is the ability of the counties to assume 



responsibility for the exercise of these powers? 

II. Municipalities. 

A. What is the need for municipalities as units of 
government? 

B. Is there a need for a general grant of power to the 
municipalities? 

C. Source of power. 

1. Received from county in which located. 

2. Received from Constitution. 

3. Received from legislature. 

D. Form of power. 

E. Conflict between county and municipality. 

1. Allocation of power. 

2. Resolution of conflicts. 

III. Region and Metropolitan Area solutions short of the 
formation of new units of government. 

A. Is there a need for the establishment of a procedure 
for the solution of area-wide problems? 

1. Throughout the entire State? 

2. Only in metropolitan areas? 
3.. In non-urbanized areas? 

B. How extensive is the conflict of county needs with 
regional needs? 

1. Resolution by State. 

2. Resolution by regional government. 

C. Alternative approaches. 



1. Voluntary cooperative efforts by counties. 

(a) Agreements and contracts. 

(b) Formation of authorities. 

2. Creation by the State of inter-governmental 
agencies . 

(a) What is the effect on the home rule 
powers of the counties? 

(b) Should the creation of inter-governmental 
agencies be with the consent of the 
affected counties? 

(c) Should the creation of an authority be 
accomplished by the adoption of a 
general law applying to a class of 
counties? 

(d) Should the creation of an authority be 
accomplished by a local lav; enacted by 
the legislature? 

3. Consolidation. 

(a) Initiation by the counties. 

(b) Initiation by the General Assembly. 

(1) With referendum. 

(2) Without referendum. 

IV. Regional Governments. 

A. Is there a need for the creation of units of govern- 
ment, between the counties and the State, to solve 
area-wide problems? 

1. Throughout entire State. 



2. In metropolitan areas. 

3. To include total counties or parts of counties? 
D. Methods and procedures for establishing regions. 

1. Permissive Constitutional provision allowing 
legislative action. 

2. Permissive Constitutional provision allowing 
action by governing bodies of counties. 

3. Permissive Constitutional provision allowing 
action by qualified voters. 

*J . Establishment in the Constitution. 
5. Mandatory Constitutional provision requiring 
legislature to establish boundaries. 

(1) Immediately. 

(2) At the time an area achieves a certain 
population. 

C. Number of regions. 

1. Constitutional provision establishing maximum 
number. 

2. Constitutional provision establishing minimum 
number of counties in a region. 

D. Powers of regions. 

1. Transferred from counties by voluntary action. 

2. Delegated by the State. 

3. Removed by the State from constituent counties 
and transferred to regional unit. 

(a) By general lav/ affecting all counties in 
a class. 

(b) By local law, without the consent of the 



affected counties. 

E. Form of Government. 

1. Determined by voters of the area. 

2. Determined by the legislature. 

3. Determined by governing bodies of constituent 
counties . 

F. Form of Representation. 

1. Directly elected. 

2. Appointed. 

V. The State. 

A. What are the functions and responsibilities of the 
State? 

B. Should there be any restrictions placed on the power 
of the State to intervene in county and municipal 
affairs? 

C. Should the State be empowered to create, consolidate 
or dissolve counties? 

1. With referendum. 

2. V/ithout referendum. 

D. Should the State be empowered to alter the boundaries 
of political subdivisions with or without a refer- 
endum of the residents. 

1. Counties. 

2. Municipalities. 

3. Regional authorities. 
Jj . Regional governments. 

VI. The Federal Role. 



- 5 - 



A. What will Federal programs require of the state in 
regard to the structure and powers of local govern- 
ment? 

B. What will be the future relationship of Federal 
programs to intra-state regions, counties and 
municipalities? 



\ 



VII. Summary. 

A. Problems. 

B. Recommended solutions. 



.'- 



- fi _ 



1 THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN PROBLEMS 

: HELD AT GOUCHER COLLEGE 

TOWS ON, MARYLAND 
3 

4 

5 

6 Friday, December 9, 1966 - 10:30 a.m. 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

Dr. Otto F. Kraushaar, 
12 Mr. Walter Sondheim, 



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Moderators 



Reported by: 

A. A. Castiglione 
W. P. Banister 
M. Wasserman 



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DR. KRAUSHAAR: Ladies and gentlemen and par- 

c ticipants all, and when I say ladies and gentlemen, I 

realize that we've just made it, as far as the ladies were 

4 concerned and I have a special word of welcome for them as 

c the distaff side, because this is normally a college for 

6 women and this room is normally inhabited almost entirely 

7 by women. 

I welcome you to this Goucher Conference on 

c Metropolitan Problems and Metropolitan Government which, 

10 to remind you, is sponsored not only by Goucher College, 

11 but co-sponsors with us are the University of Maryland, 

12 Johns Hopkins University and Morgan State College, and 

13 representatives of all those institutions are present with 

14 us this morning. 

15 i As you know, the Conference has been called to 

16 discuss issues and problems of Constitutional revision that 

17 are to come before the State Convention on Constitutional 

18 revision which is meeting in September of 1967, and we hope 

19 we can discuss essentially those aspects which have to do 

20 with the relationship of the State Government to local units 

21 of government. 



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1 You may wonder how colleges and universities get 

2 into this act. Well, let me just say that colleges and 

3 universities lead a double life. They live in the rarefied 

4 atmosphere of sholarship, somewhat detached in this respect 

5 from public affairs, but they also live in the actual world 

6 which they wake up in every morning and are thus concerned 

7 about the problems of government and that accounts for the 

8 fact that this conference is held at a college. 

9 Our purpose is not so much, for the conference, 

10 that of trying to reach a consensus; if we could reach a 

11 consensus, I think we would be very lucky, indeed, but 

12 rather to discuss the issues and to present the various 

13 points of view that are relevant to the question of Metro- 

14 politan Government and how we can revise the State Consti- 

15 tution to deal effectively with Metropolitan problems. Now 

16 I have a lot of small details, first of all, to mention 

17 with reference to the conference. 

18 Let me say something about the time schedule, 

19 first of all. Like every good conference, we got off to a 

20 late start, which we more or less expected. So, let me 

21 give you the schedule for the day. We will have a coffee 



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1 break sometime later in the morning. Because of our late 

2 beginning, we considered having the coffee break to start 
5 with, but decided this would only delay the conference 

4 still further. Lunch will be held at the Alumnae House, 

5 which is a small building just down the road to my left 
g here, at one o'clock. We will hope to resume, then, at 

7 2:30 here again with, again, a coffee and tea break in the 

8 afternoon and hope to adjourn at 5:30. There will be cock- 

9 tails at my home on the campus, which is just a short walk 

10 from here, at six o'clock, and dinner in the Alumnae House 

11 again at seven. That is the schedule for the day. 

12 Now, I would like to read at this point a tele- 

13 gram of greeting from Governor Tawes who was unable to be 

14 here this morning. It reads as follows: 

15 "I deeply regret that previous commitments make 

16 it impossible for me to be with you today and tomorrow at 

17 the Conference on Local Government in Maryland. The prob- 

18 lems on your agenda are among the most critical and impor- 

19 tant facing our State and indeed the Nation. Our ability to 

20 solve the problems of structuring state-local relationships 

21 and modernizing local government to meet the complex demand 



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1 of urbanization and the growth of metropolitan areas may 

2 well determine the future of our State. The persons 

2 gathered at Goucher, both out of State and Maryland experts 

4 in this field, are uniquely qualified to make a meaningful 

g contribution to our knowledge of these problems and pos- 

g sible solutions. The first Maryland Constitutional Conven- 

7 tion in one hundred years will convene next September. 

8 The delegates will look to you for guidance as will all 

9 Marylanders who share a concern for the future development 

10 of our State. I wish to extend to all the conferees a warm 

11 welcome on behalf of the State of Maryland and 1 wish you 

12 well in your endeavors and deliberations." That is the 

13 message from Governor Tawes . 

14 I would like, now, to introduce a gentleman who 

15 is best introduced by coining a phrase, 1 think, namely, 

15 that he needs no introduction, and that is Walter Sondheim, 

17 my co-Moderator, cohort, sidekick -- 

18 MR. SONDHEIM: And fellow sufferer. 

19 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Good, that puts the cap on it. 

20 Walter, in my estimation, is probably Baltimore's number 

21 | one citizen, in view of the fact that he has taken a 



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position of leadership and has participated in almost every 
significant civic endeavor in the City of Baltimore and in 
many in the State of Maryland as well; everything from the 
Commissioner of Education in the City of Baltimore to the 
Head of the Urban Renewal Apency and many way stations be- 
tween in the past and since then. We are going to share 
the duties of co-moderators today. I guess that's the 
title, isn't it, Walter? So that, either one of us will 
be in the Chair or both of us will be in the Chair at the 
same time and you may address questions or comments to 
either of us or we may call on you for comments. 

I would like to say that we think of this con- 
ference, above all, is a conference of participants, all of 
us. There are a few persons who have been asked to make 
statements. These statements are expected to be relatively 
brief and most of the conference time will be devoted to 
discussion and sometimes we may call on individuals among 
the participants who have special knowledge of certain 
areas or certain forms of government to participate in the 
discussion. It is to be, therefore, a conference that will 
transmit the discussion to the Constitutional Convention 



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1 and to the Commission that is in the interim dealing with 

2 the problems of setting up and preparing for the Constitu- 

3 tional Convention. 

4 We would like, now, to ask you to introduce your 

5 selves, if you would be so kind, by rising and stating your 

6 name and your chief claim to distinction or your primary 

7 association with the institutions of government that may be 

8 pertinent and relevant to this conference. 

9 We are doing this because of the fact that some 

10 of you -- you are all hereby invitation and all welcome. 

11 At the same time, we did not have word from some that they 

12 would be here and certain others have sent substitutes be- 

13 cause they were unable at the last minute to be present. 

14 So, for the purposes of general identification, I am going 

15 to call on you, if you would be so kind to rise in succes- 

16 sion and state your name and position, and I'll start here 

17 with Dr. Norton. 

18 (Whereupon, the persons in attendance proceeded 

19 to identify themselves.) 

20 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, gentlemen. We have 

21 this morning two general statements to be heard before we 



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1 begin the discussion and also a word from Mayor McKeldin, 

2 a word of greeting from Mayor McKeldin when he arrives. 

3 So, we'll begin our program in anticipation that the Mayor 

4 will be here at some time during the course of the morning 

5 by calling first on Mr. Francis X. Gallagher. 

6 We are not going to go in for elaborate intro- 

7 ductions this morning, but I would like to identify Frank 
9 by something more than what he gave us just a moment ago 

9 in his own self introduction. He is a former member of the 
10 State Legislature, very active in civic affairs, the per- 
il sonal attorney to Cardinal Sheehan and a former People's 

12 Counsel of the Public Service Commission and a prominent 

13 member of the Democratic Party in Maryland. I knew him 

14 for many, many afternoons and nights as a member of an 

15 Arbitration Borad to settle the Sunpapers news strike. 
15 Frank, a pleasure to have you here. 

17 MR. SONDHEIM: There is one other thing that 

18 hasn't been said, if I may, and that is if the telephone 

19 rings, he's the father of twins, which is about to happen. 

20 MR. GALLAGHER: Messrs. Moderators , distinguished 

21 ladies and gentlemen, it's a perplexing honor to be listed 



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1 as the first problem under Baltimore Metropolitan Area on 

2 your program, but I was pleased to have the request made 

3 to say a few words which I assure you are purely personal 

4 and also quite brief. The words that I have to say spring 

5 somewhat from my experience in the Legislature and the at- 

6 tempt to pass the Metropolitan Transit Authority Bill which 

7 was a labor of love. 

8 The Baltimore Metropolitan Area in my opinion 

9 continues to be a loose, disjointed confederacy of duchies, 

10 some of which until the past few days had but a single, 

11 identical characteristic, and that is to say, in Baltimore 

12 City, Baltimore County and Anne Arundel County, each of 

13 them had a Republican chief executive. At last, however, 

14 as a result of the elections, even that gossamer unifying 

15 thread has been dissipated. 

16 Viewing the need for a regional government, 

17 one is compelled to observe that the Baltimore Metropolitan 

18 Area has all the traditional obstacles which would face 

19 any such effort, if a unifying attempt were made, plus a 

20 few unique hurdles which one would be tempted to describe 

21 out of deference to local self-esteem as monumental. 



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3 



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, We start with amiable Baltimore City itself, 

2 which is a kind of municipal ghost ship cast adrift in the 
1850's from any county ties. As a result of this adoption, 
4 in reverse, Baltimore City does not even enjoy the status 
_ of being a stepchild. Indeed, it is only a former child, 
g disinherited, abandoned and excluded by many outlanders 
„ as the source of sin and degradation. 

o For the past twenty years, Baltimore's principal 

o arteries of traffic have served as vast vomatoria, allowing 
residences, residents, and businesses alike to take refuge 
in the happy hunting grounds of county suburbia. In effect, 
22 ° ur streets have been one-way, out, and the most significant: 
2* street sign has been, Exit. 

,4 A few efforts to unite the area as a viable, 

,e economic entity have succeeded, such as the Maryland Port 
-,,. Authority and the Metropolitan Transit Authority, but they 
17 are, in reality, both one-shot propositions born out of 
■jo fierce labors following unseemly lengthy periods of gesta- 
tion. 

The residents of Baltimore County, Anne Arundel 



10 



19 
20 



22 County and Harford County, as well as Howard, may be a 



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11 



1 diverse group of people, but they have one common experience 

2 that many of them share as brothers and that is they have 

3 fled Baltimore City and their memories, ladies and gentle- 

4 men, are remarkably keen. They remember why they left. 

5 Then went for sanctuary, and it's not an unreasonable thing 

6 for Maryland, being known in the history texts as the land 

7 of the sanctuary, to provide sanctuary for some of the 
3 citizens even from a part of Maryland itself. To these 
9 people Baltimore City means noise, dirt, traffic, crime, 

10 racial tensions, crowded living, venerable housing, 

11 asphalt and all the other ills of urban and inner-city 

12 living. Can one really expect that those who sought 

13 sanctuary and who think they have found it temporarily, at 

14 least, are going to look with favor upon a league with the 

15 very plague that sent them on their personal hegira, often 
15 at a considerable expense and sometimes at great economic 
17 loss. 
13 But the average county resident in the Baltimore 

19 Metropolitan Area has strong feelings about two subjects 

20 which he would like to leave to the exclusive domain of 

21 Baltimore City. Many of these people simply do not want 



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^ any more Negroes living in their counties. Secondly, they 

2 do not want to carry the kind of welfare burden that 

, Baltimore City has experienced. Now, if you add to these 

4. attitudes toward race and welfare payments the third 

c ingredient of urban renewal, you have concocted in a single 

g tablet the compound guaranteed to produce fear, frenzy and 

7 phobia. 

3 To suggest that an alliance with Baltimore City 
9 has anything to recommend itself to many of the residents 

10 of the urban areas of the county is to invite instant may- 

11 hem. 

12 Residents of the area surrounding Baltimore City 

13 are convinced that taxes take their biggest bite from the 

14 city dwellers. Of course, they themselves may be experi- 
25 encing some discomfort and loss of allusions when they 

25 total up all the taxes they paid to their own subdivisions, 

17 particularly where shcool construction can never quite 

18 keep up with the demand. But if one were to add the City's 

19 fiscal woes to those of the burgeoning counties, it is un- 

20 thinkable that any plan, merger or annexation, consolidatioh 

21 call it what you will, is possibly going to be met with any 



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other attitude than that of complete anathema. 

It would seem to me also, simply on the basis 
of personal observation, that there is a strong concentra- 
tion of resistance to any change in the relationships of 
the subdivisions in the Baltimore Area and this vocal core 
has strong adherents among reactionary groups centered in 
Baltimore County particularly and in Anne Arundel County 
to a somewhat lesser degree. The logic of these stand- 
patters is based upon the premise that big government is 
bad government and that by keeping government as small as 
possible and as close to home as possible, one is going to 
be guaranteed more of the old-fashioned democratic process. 

Suggestions that regional governments can be 
created even on a limited basis are certain to produce a 
Pavlovian response to the effect that such schemes are anti 
democratic, socialistic, pro-Russian, with a dash of athe- 
ism to spice it off. 

Translated into political realities, one is 
forced to observe that self-preservation has at least until 
the present time caused most county office-holders to take 
a hostile or at least negative stand against any kind of 



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14 



1 genuine broad cooperation with Baltimore City. Regret- 

2 fully, the characteristic evident in such an attitude, 

3 while understandable, must be classified as followship 

4 rather than leadership. 

5 While there may be some hope that a reconsti- 

6 tuted General Assembly may give more of an ear to the prob- 

7 lems of Metropolitan Baltimore, there is still a woeful 

8 lack of understanding abroad. The climate for regional 

9 cooperation, not to mention regional government, has yet 

10 to be produced. Undoubtedly, this resolves itself into a 

11 job of salesmanship, a pointing up of where the quid is to 

12 be exchanged for the quo, an educational effort at the 

13 very least. 

14 To establish in a basic charter the requisite 

15 legal machinery to assist metropolitan areas such as 

lg Baltimore to regroup is an indispensable first step, but 

17 the machinery will never move a gear until there is a mas- 

13 sive move to provide courage to our officials and under- 

19 standing to our citizens. (Applause) 

20 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, Frank. 

21 Next, we are to have a statement from the other 



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Metroplex that produces special metropolitan problems in 
the State of Maryland, having heard from Frank about the 
problems chiefly of Baltimore in relation to its near 
county neighbors, and I would like to introduce to speak 
about the Washington situation and generally, Mr. Charles 
Horsky, who is a native of Silver Spring, Maryland. He 
has been a resident there since 1937, although he claims 
as his native state, Montana. He has been since 1962 the 
Advisor to the President of the United States for National 
Capital Affairs. Mr. Horsky. 

MR. HORSKY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I feel 
somewhat the need to apologize in advance for what will 
perhaps be a very dispersive statement, since the invita- 
tion to join you came only the day before yesterday and I 
wasn't at all sure until yesterday exactly what it was that 
was going to go on over here this morning, but 1 will at- 
tempt, if I may, in fifteen minutes or something of that 
sort to give you some sort of a picture as I see it of the 
problems that arise in connection with the relationships be 
tween the Maryland counties, principally, of course, Prince 
Georges and Montgomery, although beginning to get beyond 



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, that a little bit and what is in a large sense the City of 
2 Washington. 

The problems are quite different than those that 
4 are existent in Baltimore, because the City of Washington, 
j. Greater Washington, if you will understand it in that 
g fashion, is in three separate jurisdictions, only one of 
„ which is within the purview of the Maryland Constitutional 
o Convention. It is a metropolitan area which will soon ap- 
q proach three million people, almost equally at the moment 
jo divided, are among Maryland, the District and Virginia 
H and it is, 1 think it is fair to say, a city, even though 

22 it does have these three jurisdictions responsible for 

23 geographic parts of it. 

24 As a city, it is attempting in a variety of ways 
to act like a city, that is, to do something for itself as 
a unity rather than as three separate pieces of a single 

,„ city. Some of the things it has done are truly able to be 
■jo said to be metropolitan achievements. 

The most recent -- and one of which you are per- 
haps aware -- is the final ratification by the Congress of 



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create a mass transit authority to build and operate a sub- 
way system for Washington. This body, which is composed 
of a Board of Directors, two from each of the three juris- 
dictions, is a truly metropolitan-wide operation and it 
succeeds a much more limited metropolitan-wide operation, 
also the result of a compact, which regulated bus and taxi 
routes and fares for the Metropolitan Area. 

There is also, apart from this what you might 
call true metropolitanism which is achieved by compact, 
a very rapidly growing sense of community on a cooperative 
basis. You will probably hear from people who know the 
specifics more than I about the Council of Governments, an 
association which is not much more than a decade old, but 
which has by virtue of its demonstrated ability to get 
cooperation and to utilize cooperative efforts construc- 
tively, made it possible for a good many things to be done 
throughout Washington which would otherwise nothave been pos- 
sible. It has major achievements in the field of cooperation 
on police, on fire, on air polution, on solid was te disposal 
on a variety of problems, mundane perhaps in the usual sens?, 
but nonetheless terribly important, if a city, if Greater 



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Washington is to function adequately as a city. 




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It has recently achieved another role which will 




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probably be its most important one as it goes along. It is 




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now officially designated as the regional planning agency 




5 


for the Greater Washington Area and, as such, is eligible 




6 


to receive Federal 701 grants for that purpose and it is 




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undertaking that task, along with the task which is manda- 




8 


tory under the Federal Highway Act, of being at least ad- 




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ministratively responsible for a co-ordinate planning 




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process for transportation for the Washington Metropolitan 




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Area. 




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There are, apart from those, what you might call 


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formal connections throughout the Metropolitan region, a 




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variety of informal ones, city-wide cooperation on a variet 


y 


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of topics ranging from such things as a Health and Welfare 




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Council for the Greater Washington Area to a variety of 




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other things of that sort. I don't think thosewill con- 




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cern you. 




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if at all, acquainted with the Maryland Constitution, nor 




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what it might have in it now or what might be appropriate 






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to put in it which would be relevant to the things that 
I've been talking about. Basically, I would think that 
what is necessary is freedom for the suburban jurisdictions 
adjacent to the District of Columbia and adjacent to 
Virginia to be able to accommodate themselves to a 
developing pattern of cooperation throughout the munici- 
palities. I don't know at the moment of any inhibitions 
which presently exist in that respect. 

I do know that there were problems relating to 
the Virginia Constitution, which still make the problem of 
the implementation of the subway compact a matter of con- 
siderable concern in Virginia. These were fiscal problems 
relating to the appropriation provision in the Virginia 
Constitution between the powers of the State and the powers 
of the localities to raise money. These problems apparently 
do not exist in Maryland, at least, they haven't come to 
the surface yet in the very fewweeks that have elapsed 
since the Congress finally brought the compact into being 
by ratifying it at the close of its last session. 

But it is, it seems to me, terribly important 
that the Maryland Constitution not put on local governments, 



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1 be they county governments, such as Montgomery and Prince 

2 Georges, or be they local governments within those counties 
5 to the extent that they continue to exist, prohibitions or 

4 inhibitions which would make it impossible for them to par- 

5 ticipate as the years go on in the developing relationship 
g within a large community which is of major significance to 
7 that community. 

3 I don't know how the ultimate division of 
9 Washington will come out, although I suspect that the 

10 probabilities are that more than one-third will ultimately 

11 be in Maryland, a somewhat smaller segment will be in 

12 Virginia and a decreasingly small proportion will be in the 

13 District, simply because it is already all filled up. Its 

14 800,000 people are going to stay just about that many for 

15 the foreseeable future and, as the increasing proportion 
15 of Washington becomes a Maryland problem, it seems to me 
17 that the role of the State of Maryland and of the Maryland 
IB Legislature should be to recognize, as far as it is pos- 

19 sible to do so, a responsibility not particularly to deal 

20 with it itself, but to be sure that the people who do live 

21 in the area, which is Greater Washington, are free to 



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•y handle the problems in the way in which a mutual regard for 

o the total community seems to indicate is the best. Thank 
„ you very much. (Applause.) 

4 DR. KRAUSHAAR: We are privileged to have with 

5 us this morning his Honor, the Mayor of Baltimore, Theodore 
q McKeldin, and I would like to say that he is in a position 
« to give to this conference a particular insight, I believe, 
g by virtue of the fact that he has been both the Governor of 
g the State and the Mayor of the City and in both instances 

has demonstrated his concern and interest in the issues and 
H problems of metropolitan government and their relationship 

12 to tne state government. 

It is, therefore, with real pleasure that I call 
u on Mayor Theodore Roosevelt McKeldin to speak a few words 
^c to this gathering. 

16 MAYOR McKELDIN: Thank you very much, Doctor. I 

T7 apologize for being late. Unfortunately, we had other 

matters I couldn't get away from in City Hall. I'm sorry 
I didn't hear the other speakers. I'm particularly sorry I 
didn't hear Francis Gallagher. I understand he did a very 



10 



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21 fine job for the City of Baltimore, as, of course, I knew 



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1 he would do. 

2 This conference is an important landmark in the 

3 public discussion which has been going on in Maryland for 

4 several months about the form that our local government 

5 should take. These discussions will undoubtedly continue 

6 until the Constitutional Convention and the Electorate 

7 reach their decisions on this subject. 

8 What I am going to say today is not new -- it 

9 has been said by students of government for many years. 

10 What is new here today is that this subject is -- for the 

11 first time -- receiving the serious public consideration 

12 it deserves. 

13 The basic units of government in Maryland are 

14 Baltimore City and the 23 counties. The first priority 

15 must be to revitalize these primary units of government by 

16 granting them positive powers of home rule. The present 

17 provisions for county home rule in the Constitution are 

18 inadequate and have been further weakened by court decision^ 

19 and by practice. 

Maryland is fortunate to have a relatively small 

21 number of political subdivisions upon which it can rely to 



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1 perform the major functions of local government. We must 

2 seek to preserve and strengthen this system through local 

2 self-rule. I believe that the most practical way of accom- 

4 plishing a constitutional grant of home rule is through 

5 granting to local governments, in the Constitution, all 

g powers of government except those denied to local govern- 

7 ment by the General Assembly acting through general law. 

8 This method presents local governments with maximum power 

9 and flexibility to act to meet local conditions. At the 

10 same time it vests in the General Assembly the ultimate 

11 power to act in any and all matters. 

12 To insure the proper functioning of this system, 

13 it is essential that the General Assembly act with regard 

14 to local government only by general law. In order to pro- 

15 vide some flexibility, I believe that the Constitution 
15 should provide for the classification of counties by the 

17 General Assembly on the basis of population. Any law 

18 i a Pplyi- n g to one or ™°*"e classes of counties would be con- 

19 sidered a general law. It is essential to the concept of 

20 home rule, however, that the method of classification be 

21 restricted to population. The unrestricted power of the 

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1 General Assembly to classify could completely destroy ef- 

2 fective home rule. The number of classes should be re- 

3 stricted. The fewer the number of classes allowed and the 

4 greater the number of counties that would be required in 

5 each class, the greater is the assurance that a general 

6 law will in fact be general in application. 

7 Finally, in order to insure the integrity of 

8 Baltimore City and the existing counties, 1 do not believe 

9 that any shifts in boundaries should be permitted to be- 

10 come effective unless the voters of each affected county, 

11 as well as the voters in the areas to be shifted, have 

12 agreed to the change. To permit the realignment of county 

13 boundaries by the General Assembly without the consent of 

14 all persons affected would be contrary to the spirit of 

15 home rule. 

16 If the counties and Baltimore City can be es- 

17 tablished as the major units of government, then we will 
1: have taken a step forward. We can then say that we have 
1? brought our constitutional provisions on local government 
£0 up to date. We will not be able to say, however, that we 
21 have looked to the future and planned for what the future 



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1 will inevitably bring. Maryland is situated in the middle 

g of the gigantic urban sprawl which stretches along our 

5 eastern seaboard. The problems that this urban sprawl 

4 presents call for some pioneer thinking in our concepts of 
g local government. 

5 In the Baltimore area I have worked diligently 
7 through the Metropolitan Area Council to establish a forum 
3 for the solution of metropolitan problems. The Metropolitan 
9 Area Council, however, has no power and no staff. Thus, 

10 while it has been a useful mechanism for meeting with my 

11 neighboring chief executives in Baltimore and Anne Arundel 

12 counties, and discussing common problems, it cannot by it- 

13 self meet the problems that transcend county boundary lines 

14 I think that current events show that our 

15 counties can no longer be relied on to provide all local 
15 services. We already have, in fact, several regional 

17 agencies. There is a Regional Planning Council, with cer- 

13 tain planning responsibilities. There is also a Metro- 

19 politan Transit Authority. There is a regional transpor- 

20 tation planning group known as "ACCORD," which has certain 

21 responsibilities for transportation planning. There are 



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serious conversations now going on about the need for a 
water and sewer authority. Certain members of the State 
Legislature have proposed an airport authority. Finally, 
there are many cooperative metropolitan endeavors going on 
in such diverse fields as air pollution and library ser- 
vices. The existence of these authorities and programs 
indicates the need for some larger unit than the counties 
for carrying out some programs. They also illustrate a 
danger. That danger is that we will spoil our present un- 
cluttered pattern of local government by imposing upon it 
all kinds of special districts, authorities and taxing 
areas . 

In studying the establishment of any system of 
regional government, I believe there are at least three 
things of fundamental importance that must be kept in mind. 

The first of these is the fact that the 
Baltimore Metropolitan Area and, in fact, most of 
Maryland has been fortunate to escape the proliferation of 
governmental units that has affected many cities and states 
This proliferation elsewhere has been the result of the 
establishment of special-purpose authorities, with 



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1 differing geographical boundaries, and with resultant over- 

2 lapping and layering of taxing and borrowing authority. 

3 These many authorities and taxing districts have usually 

4 led to fiscal chaos and citizen confusion. 

5 I believe it is important that, if we are to 

6 consider establishing regional government, we establish onlj- 

7 one unit within each geographic area and charge it with the 

8 responsibility for all functions within that region which 

9 are to be performed on a regional basis. Such a multi- 

10 purpose unit of government will permit an orderly expansion 

11 of services in the expanding metropolitan areas and will 

12 concentrate fiscal responsibility in one unit of govern- 

13 ment. 

14 Secondly, it would be advisable to consider 

15 seriously the desirability of organizing a regional govern- 

16 ment in the true sense of the word and not an authority. 

17 Any regional government should have its own elected chief 

18 executive and elected legislative body which would be res- 

19 ponsible to the voters for the activity of the region. 

20 Appointed authorities, no matter how their members are ap- 

21 i pointed, tend to become unresponsive to the residents of th£ 



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areas they serve and thus fail to provide the services that 
the people desire. Furthermore, I believe it is inherently 
dangerous to vest taxing and borrowing powers in an ap- 
pointed board, powers which any regional unit must have to 
be effective. 

Finally, the boundaries of the regions must be 
carefully drawn and must bear some reasonable relations to 
the economic, social and political facts of life in the 
State. It is highly important that there be a community 
of interest of the residents of the region. 

In closing, I would like to emphasize that any 
regional government should not be considered to be a re- 
placement for the counties or Baltimore City. I am per- 
sonally convinced that, for many years to come, the 
county can and should remain our primary unit of govern- 
ment. Rather, such a government should be considered as a 
means of establishing, in an orderly pattern, the present 
functions now being carried out on a metropolitan basis in 
a disorganized manner. (Applause.) 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, Mayor McKeldin, for a 
statement which I think fitted beautifully into, I should 



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say, the context o£ the morning's activities here. 

We have had statements from the two important 
metropolitan centers and the problems that arise as a re- 
sult of the metropolitan population living adjacent to the 
counties, and Mayor McKeldin has just given us some recom- 
mendations to a solution of these problems and these we 
will be discussing in the hours ahead in this conference. 

Before we proceed further, I should like to 
read a telegram that comes to us from Governor-Elect Spiro 
T. Agnew which reads as follows: "Congratulations to our 
colleges for their sponsorship of this outstanding con- 
ference on modernization of local government in Maryland. 
The stature of those participating indicates that you will 
make substantial progress. I regret that an out-of- town 
commitment prevents me being part of your group, but 1 have 
sent to you a knowledgeable and experienced representative. 
Again, my congratulations and best wishes for a most 
successful meeting. Signed, Spiro T. Agnew." 

With this, I think the time has come when we 
should hear from the silent partner here thus far on this 
side of the table. In fact, Walter, I don't recall having 



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1 heard you being silent so long in a situation of this kind. 

2 MR. SONDHEIM: I knew if I waited, that these 

3 nice things that Otto said about me that weren't true, 

4 something would come up, and I think that's right. 

5 As you can see from your programs, we're now 

6 going to hear from Mr. Eney and I think that if you were to 

7 ask any knowledgeable Marylander for the names of the most 

8 brilliant and able leaders of the Bar, that no knowledgeabl 

9 Marylander would fail to mention Vernon Eney among the very 
10 top few. He also, I might say, has the kind of keen per- 
il ception and insight that terrifies his friends, a group 

12 of which I am proud to include myself. 

13 We promised no elaborate introductions, but I 

14 think because we are on the Goucher Campus, you ought to 

15 know Mr. Eney is a Trustee of Goucher and also counsel to 

16 the college and a former President of the Bar Association, 

17 which has nothing to do with Goucher. But he is here today 

18 because he is the Chairman of the Maryland Constitutional 

19 Convention Commission, to which job he has devoted count- 

20 less hours and has driven his fellow Commissiom members and 

21 staff, I understand, to countless hours, as some of them 



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1 here I'm sure can testify and he has shown leadership in 

2 this which unquestionably will be of inestimable value for 

3 the coming generations of Marylanders. 

4 Mr. Eney is going to talk about the role of the 

5 Constitution in establishing the structure of government 

6 and allocating power. 

7 MR. ENEY: Thank you. Messrs. Moderators, 

8 ladies and gentlemen, I won't attempt to answer that or 

9 reply to that introduction because I would find it quite 

10 impossible. Suffice it to say that, like most introduc- 

11 tions,it's grossly exaggerated. 

12 I want, first of all, to express my very sincere 

13 appreciation and that of every member of the Constitutional 

14 Convention Commission to Goucher College, the University of 

15 Maryland, the Johns Hopkins University and Morgan State 

16 College for undertaking to call together what I think is 

17 perhaps the most distinguished group of persons to meet in 

18 Maryland in many, many decades to consider problems of 

19 really frightening proportions for the future of this State 

20 I say that because all of you, I am sure, realize the 

21 tremendous amount of preparation that lies behind the 



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convening of a conference such as this, with the number of 
participants both from out of State and locally fitting 
their plans into the plans of the college, and even making 

4 sure that you have no distractions whatsoever because all 

: the young ladies are leaving this morning. 

6 I want to, in the few minutes alloted to me, 

7 do two things. First, I want to indicate to you in brief 
outline what the Constitutional Convention Commission con- 

; ceives is the Constitutional objective in solving the prob- 

10 lems of metropolitan areas in Maryland, and secondly, to 

11 outline to you again in brief prospective, but fairly ln- 

12 clusively, the recommendations which the Commission will 

13 probably make. 

14 Let me at the outset say, for the benefit of 

15 those who are from out of State, that the Constitutional Coji 

16 vention Commission has been working for about sixteen 

17 months. It is a Commission appointed by the Governor. It 

18 is purely a preparatory commission. It is preparing for a 
li Constitutional Convention which will convene in Maryland 
2 on September 12, 1967, a date in Maryland that has historic 
:: significance, known as Defenders Day and, to the best of 



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I you non-Marylanders , it's the birth date in 1914 of the 
Star-Spangled Banner or theEattleof North Point, or Fort 
McHenry, however you want to describe it. 
4 In any event, our commission is trying to pre- 

c pare for that Constitutional Convention by assembling all 

q possible information, data, research possible for us in the 

7 time allotted and with the funds and the personnel allotted 
to us and, in addition, to prepare for the consideration of 

9 the Convention drafts of Constitutional provisions. In 

10 many cases, these will be alternate drafts because, while 

11 we will recommend, we keep in mind constantly that our 

12 function is to recommend. The function of the Convention 

13 ultimately is to debate and decide. 

14 The function of this conference, therefore, is 

15 of tremendous importance to us because we hope that the 
15 deliberations of this group taken down s tenographically , 

17 edited, will be published and be available to the members 

18 of the Constitutional Convention, so that they will have 

19 before them not merely the material that we may have as- 

20 sembled dealing with this subject, but also the discussions 

21 of this group and the independent views of all the 



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1 participants. For that reason, it is not of particular 

2 significance whether or not there is any concensus reached. 

3 What we hope will be produced here is an informed dialogue 

4 dealing specifically with Maryland's problems dealing with 

5 the metropolitan urban areas. 

6 No**, as to the objective of the Commission in 

7 drafting a constitution for the consideration of the Con- 

8 vention. First off, we hope to have a very much condensed 

9 document, quite unlike the detailed, one-hundred printed 

10 page document that Maryland's Constitution now is. We 

11 hope it will provide the structure of government. We are 

12 recommending provisions with reference to the three main 

13 branches of government, the Executive, the Legislative and 

14 the Judicial, which will make each responsible, give it the 

15 power to carry out the responsibility and, with a minimum 

16 of checks and balances, make each of the three major 

17 branches self-governed. 

18 The fourth big area of our endeavors has to do 

19 with the matter that you are going to be discussing this 

20 morning, and that is the political subdivisions, how should 

21 they be governed. Here, our objective can be simply stated 



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1 It is to provide in the Constitution a bare framework, a 

2 structure of government that has some reasonable possibilit 

3 or prospect of being able to solve the urgent problems of 

4 metropolitan areas, but we do not propose to set up the de- 

5 tailed methods of solving those problems. We hope to 

6 provide only a structure of government, but a government 

7 with sufficient power and capability to work out the de- 

8 tailed solutions. 

9 One cannot do that unless one knows what the 

10 problem is and has some concept of what possible means, 

11 governmental means might be available now and in the future 

12 to solve those problems. So, in connection with that ob- 

13 jective and before reaching our recommendations, we took 

14 into account what we called some of the facts of life 

15 dealing with this particular problem and the most essential 

16 of such facts of life is that a constitution not adopted 

17 by the people, one rejected by the people, as Kentucky's 

18 was this past month, which is a smear and a scrap of paper. 

19 It is meaningless. 

20 Therefore, we must have the Constitutional Con- 

21 vention adopt and recommend for adoption by the 



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- Electorate of Maryland a constitution that will be a con- 
stitution, an operative constitution and not merely a 

5 theoretical framework set out on a piece of paper, but 

4 otherwise meaningless. 

5 We keep in mind as one of the facts of life that 

6 Maryland is neither far left nor far right. It is reasonably 

7 conservative, but probably pretty much middle of the road 
3 in almost every aspect of life, social, political, all as- 
9 pects of life. 

10 Even population-wise, with reference to its area, 

11 it has this mean position, with one glaring exception, and 

12 that glaring exception is that Maryland lies in the path of 

13 what we've come to talk about as the megalopolis stretching 

14 from Boston to Washington, or Richmond, and one of the fact*; 

15 of life unique to Maryland is that it has two very large 

16 metropolitan centers only forty miles apart at their cores 

17 rapidly approaching each other and which will probably 

18 become one metropolitan area long before we have one metro- 

19 politan area stretching from Boston to Washington. 

20 Another fact of life is that that metropolitan 

21 area will stretch from the Pennsylvania Line to the 



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District of Columbia and the Virginia Line and will 

2 probably encompass about a third of the geographic area of 

3 the State of Maryland. Another fact of life is that 

4 Maryland is that regionalized in the minds of its people, 

5 with very distinct separate regions, different traditions, 

6 different habits, different modes of thinking, different 

7 rates of growth, different in almost every conceivable way. 

8 The Eastern Shore is more different in many respects from 

9 the Western Shore of Maryland than are its neighboring 

10 states. Southern Maryland is a separate part of the State. 

11 Central Maryland, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, Harford 

12 County, Anne Arundel County have an entirely separate way 

13 of thinking, way of living. Western Maryland is also a 

14 distinct area of the State. 

15 These are, of course, geographic areas, but they 
15 are also areas which have different traditions, different 

17 social backgrounds, different economic problems, dif- 

18 ferences in almost every conceivable way. 

19 There is also a fact of life that politically 

20 the State differs in these various regions, and 1 think Mr. 

21 Gallagher's excellent discussion with you this morning of 



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the problems of the Baltimore Metropolitan Area probably 

2 point this up and highlight it more than I could possibly 

5 do; the differences in the thinking, political thinking of 

4 the former Baltimoreans who are now residents of the 

g Baltimore Metropolitan Area and the present Baltimoreans 

5 who still live in the inner City. 

7 The Commission is trying to keep all of these 

8 facts of life before it in drafting its recommendations. 

9 It is well aware that although there are many similarities 

10 between the Metropolitan Areas of Baltimore and the Metro- 

11 polican Areas of Washington, there are also many dis- 

12 similarities and perhaps the greatest dissimilarity is that 

13 the Baltimore Metropolitan Area, as of today, at least, 

14 and in the reasonably foreseeable future, encompasses only 

15 areas which are Maryland, but the Washington Metropolitan 
15 Area transcends state lines. It includes, uniquely in this 

17 Country, other states and a Federal territory, the District 

18 of Columbia. So that you have added in the problem of 

19 governing the Metropolitan Area considerations that you 

20 don't have in the Baltimore Area, the compact clause of 

21 the Federal Constitution, for instance, the necessity of 



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dealing with the Federal Government not in its overall 

2 supervisory status over the States, but also as the Govern- 
5 ment of one of the areas involved, the District of 

4 Columbia. 

c In the light of these considerations, which we 

g keep constantly before us, the Commission has worked out 

7 a series of recommendations in the portion of the Constitu- 

3 tion which will deal with political subdivisions and, be- 

9 fore summarizing those for you, let me say this. These are 

10 not absolutely final, because the Commission's report has 

11 not yet been filed. We have, however, discussed and re- 

12 discussed these recommendations over a long period, and 

13 not just casually, but in intensive sessions, sessions just 

14 just as intensive as the session we will have here today 

15 and tomorrow, two days consecutively, in consideration of 
15 the language to carry out the Constitutional function in 
17 this area, dealing with that and nothing else. 
II The recommendations cannot very well be under- 
19 stood unless both the Marylanders and the non-Marylanders 
: reflect for a moment on what we have now in the way of 
21 government of political subdivisions, because this differs 



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quite markedly from that of other states, and I think per- 
haps the chief difference and one which cannot be over- 
emphasized is Maryland's traditional reliance upon the 
county as the unit of local government, rather than the 
town or municipality. In the entire State of Maryland, 
there are 158 municipalities, but 123 of them have less 
than 2500 population. 

The only real city in the State of Maryland is 
Baltimore City and it is an independent city, as Mr. 
Gallagher pointed out, not included within any county and 
has been such since the Constitution of 1851. There have 
been no new municipalities in the State of Maryland for 
more than ten years, perhaps because by statute, and not 
by constitution, the consent of the county is needed for 
the creation of any new municipality and this consent has 
not been forthcoming. 

Maryland has had for over a hundred years home 
rule, and I put that in quotes, for Baltimore City as a 
matter of Constitutional privilege. It has had home rule, 
again in quotes, for the counties of Maryland for a long 
period of time, although not as long as the City of 



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1 Baltimore and yet in Maryland today, there are only four 

2 counties which have fully availed themselves of the home 

3 rule provisions and created a charter government. So that, 

4 by and large, our counties, including one of the most 

5 populous counties in the State, Prince Georges, adjacent 

6 to Washington, is still governed by county commissioners, 

7 exercising both legislative and executive powers. 

8 The home rule provisions of the Constitution 

9 with reference to the counties and the City of Baltimore 

10 have been founded upon the concept that the Legislature 

11 shall delegate the powers to the counties or the City and, 

12 therefore, there is always an Express Powers Act and the 

13 county or the city has no power to act unless it can find 

14 the authority in the Express Powers Act and, in case of 

15 doubt, it has been necessary to go to the Legislature to 

16 have a redefinition of powers or an enlargement of powers 

17 or a specific grant of power to meet a certain situation. 

18 There have been elaborate provisions in the Constitution 

19 and in the statutes limiting both the taxing and the bor- 

20 rowing powers of the political subdivisions. 

21 Now, against this concept, the Commission 



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1 proposes and recommends, or will recommend very radical 

2 changes, changes which I am sure will be controversial and 

3 which have already caused a great deal of debate and are 

4 certain to cause more debate and I hope will be fully dis- 

5 cussed in this conference. These changes are these. 

6 First off, we retain the county as a basic unit 

7 of local government. VJe give the Lagislature -- and when I 

8 say we give, just for avoiding the repetitive effect, 1 am 

9 always speaking in terms of a recommendation. Keep in 

10 mind that I am not speaking as the Convention or what it 

11 may ultimately do, but I don't want to have to keep saying 

12 recommend. 

13 We give the Legislature power without local 

14 referendum to alter the boundaries of any county and, from 

15 now on, when I say county, 1 will include Baltimore City 

16 because we will treat Baltimore City simply as another 

17 county in the Constitution. This provision that I just 

18 mentioned, to indicate already one area of controversy, is 

19 exactly contrary to what the Mayor forcibly said he felt we 

20 should not. In other words, the Legislature can alter the 

21 boundaries of a county, even against the wishes of the 



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] people living within the county, the part to be added or 

<: the part to be taken away. 

5 We urge a concept exactly the reverse of the 

4 present one with reference to home rule. The present con- 
g cept is one of permissive home rule. The county can elect 

5 to have home rule by the vote of its citizens and adopt a 
rj charter. We say you must rule yourself. The Legislature 
3 no longer shall have power to pass local legislation. All 
9 power of local legislation except judicial power is vested 

10 ! in the county except and. only except to the extent that 

11 the Legislature by public general law may withdraw that 

12 power. 

13 At the last session of the Legislature, there 

14 were 2200 open bills considered by the Legislature. If 

15 this concept is adopted by the Convention, the number of 
15 local bills considered by the Legislature would be zero. 

17 To further define public general law and to 

18 further limit the Legislature and to do away with the 

19 practice heretofore existing of particular counties 

20 exempting themselves by action of their Legislative repre- 

21 sentatives from otherwise public general laws , we authorized 



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the Legislature to classify counties subject to these 
limitations. There shall be not more than five classifica- 
tions, or five areas of classification. At any one time 
there can exist only one classification. A classification 
may be on the basis of population or any other criteria, 
unlike the recommendation, again, that the Mayor made a few 
moments ago. We hope that the limitation on unwise action 
of the Legislature by giving them the right to use other 
criteria is the limitation that there should be in effect 
at any given time only one classification. So that if the 
Legislature should classify today on the basis of economics 
chickens on the Eastern Shore, mining in Western Maryland 
and so forth, in order to enact legislation that would not 
be State-wide in effect, the legislation so enacted would 
last only so long as the classification lasted and if they 
decided they would like to reclassify the State tomorrow 
and to classify on a pure geographical basis, Southern 
Maryland, Central Maryland, Western Maryland and the 
Eastern Shore, then the previous classification and every- 
thing that depended on it would die. The Legislature would 
have, however, the power to take back or to withdraw or to 



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hold for exercise at the State level any power of local 
government, so long as it did so on a State-wise basis. 

We provide that the counties can adopt any 
form of government they choose within the broad framework, 
of course, of the Federal Constitution. They do not have 
to adopt a county council, county executive or manager 
form. They can retain the county commissioner form or use 
any other form, but they must make the decision. 

We subordinate municipalities completely to the 
counties, except as to existing municipalities -- and when 
I say municipalities, now, this would not include Baltimore 
City because that would be classed as a county and not as 
a municipality -- except as to existing municipalities. 
The boundaries, the grant of powers, the existence of 
municipalities would be entirely dependent upon the govern- 
ment of the county in which the municipality was located. 
As to existing municipalities, their powers could not be 
withdrawn, existing powers could not be withdrawn except 
with their consent or with the consent of the General 



Assembly. 



This concept is necessary, of course, if you 



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1 follow the concept that the county has all pov.'er of local 

2 government, except what is withdrawn by the Legislature, be 

3 cause with that concept, there is no further power of local 

4 government which the Legislature could delegate to the 

5 municipality and hence, the delegation would have to come 

6 from the county. 

7 With reference to regional government, the 

8 Commission has struggled and, as is perhaps inevitable, has 

9 come up with a compromise. We will recommend an authoriza- 

10 tion to the Legislature to create regions and, when I say 

11 regions, I mean just geographical boundaries, not govern- 

12 ments. Once the region has been created or delineated, be- 

13 cause that is all it is, a government of that region can 

14 be called into being either by the Legislature or by the 

15 concerted action of the county governments comprising the 

16 region or the governments of the counties comprising the 

17 region or parts of counties, because it is not necessary 

18 that a region's lines be contiguous with county lines, or 

19 by referendum of the voters within the region, in the same 

20 manner as the voters in the county today can adopt the 

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To the extent that governmental powers are con- 
ferred on a region, they are withdrawn from the counties 
comprising that region. So that you would not have both 
the region or the regional government and the county em- 
powered to act in the same areas. This is not to say that 
there could not be overlapping areas. There could, of 
course, be overlapping areas, because both could have 
taxing powers. 

This concept is a compromise between the views 
of those who felt that the time had come for the Constitu- 
tion makers to take the bull by the horns, to create 
regional governments and do it now in the present Constitu- 
tion or the Constitution to be adopted, and the views of 
those at the opposite end who felt that the same results 
could be achieved by viable county governments and that the 
proposals which we make will give the counties power they 
have never had before and the power to act and that with 
such power they can solve the metropolitan problems and, 
therefore, it is not necessary to provide now for a 
regional government. 

In between are the views of those -- and these 



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3 are the views which you might say prevailed as a compromise 

2 who feel that there is merit to the argument that strong 

3 county governments can provide the solution, but are not at 
4. all sure that they either can or will, and the view that 

5 it is all very well in theory to postulate a regional 

6 government for the Baltimore Metropolitan Area and another 

7 regional government for the Washington Metropolitan Area 

8 and think you have the capacity to foresee all the problems 

9 and create a government that is going to solve all the prob 

10 lems and furnish all the needs, but you run a very serious 

11 risk that ten years hence, twenty years hence, time will 

12 have proved that your judgment was bad or that you have 

13 created a form of government that is no more able to cope 

14 with the problems of that time than today's governments are 

15 and that, therefore, the Constitution should provide the. 
15 means to create a government without saying we now know 

17 what form this government should take. 

18 Now, there are ether details on the proposals, 

19 of course, but on all these major proposals, there is bound 

20 to De controversy. There is bound to be serious objection 

21 to the whole idea of regional government. There is bound 



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] to be serious objection to the idea of giving full power to 

■: the counties, to say such power shall be withdrawn from the 
Legislature. There is bound to be a great deal of sentimen 

4 in favor of continuing the system of express powers and you 

c can make strong arguments both ways . Undoubtedly, there 

6 will be many who will look in horror on the notion that the 

7 counties shall have the power of life and death over 

8 municipalities. There are Others who will applaud the 

9 move . 

10 Because these areas are so controversial, be- 
ll cause the recommendations are so far-reaching, we are in- 

12 viting your attention to each of these recommendations in ■ 

13 the course of your discussions of the overall problems and 

14 I hope you will all see fit to express your views freely 

15 and to criticize freely. Thank you very much. (Applause.) 
15 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you very much, Mr. Eney. 

17 I think this would be a good time for us to have 

18 a coffee break and 1 think we ought to try to keep it at 

19 about ten minutes, if we can, and we will have another way 

20 of getting ourselves back on schedule because of the late 

21 start by omitting the next thing on the agenda, a statement 



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by me, because Mr. Eney has covered everything I could 
possibly have said. So, the coffee is across the hall in 
the lounge and I think there is room for all of us there. 
(There was a short recess.) 



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1 DR. KRAUSHAAR: In just a moment I will turn 

2 the meeting over to Mr. Sondheim again for the remainder 

3 of the morning's program. We hope to finish this session 

4 this morning, the morning session, at about quarter of 

5 one. After that, we will adjourn to the Alumni House, 

6 which is the long sidewalk straight down here, then to 

7 your left, for some sherry and lunch. I hope you will 

8 all join us there. Now back to Mr. Sondheim. 

9 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you. Perhaps there is one 

10 thing that we might say, particularly for our guests 

11 from out of state, even some from out of town. If you 

12 have anything any of us can do for you with respect to 

13 transportation, accommodations or anything else, I think 

14 the people from Goucher would be glad to help. 

15 (Discussion off the record.) 

16 Next item on the program is listed as the 

17 focus of conference and definition of issues. For that 

18 I was going to read a document that I certainly didn't 

an 

19 write. It is /anonymous document headed statement of the 

20 problem. All of you have copies of this. Any who didn't 

21 pick them up they are available here. I can only say this 



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1 is a real abridgment of Mr. Eney's masterful exposition 

2 of the problem just before our coffee break. It would be 

3 foolish for me to read this but I do commend it to you 

* as something you may want to look over during the course 

5 of these two days because it does highlight some of the 

6 issues before us. 

7 I think perhaps we are pretty well aware now 

8 of the focus of the problems and defined in pretty broad 
terms what we hope to discuss at the conference. 

So now I think we might turn to some of our 



10 



H distinguished important talent. I almost said experts 
x but that's an awful title and I don't want to use it even 
1* though this is one time it really might be aptly applied. 
1^ Each of the men from whom you are. about to 

15 hear does bring to this an impressive list of accomplish- 

16 ments to our meeting today, of accomplishments and indeed 

17 of credentials too. The lists I have vary in length 
1® not in accordance with the distinction of individuals 
I 9 but the sources from which they were drawn, I think. 

They are long and would delay the program, I think, 
excessively if I were to read them for each. If they 



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say in general they all are people of distinction or 
they would not have been asked to this conference and let 
it go at that, let me just say briefly as I call on each 
one why he is here and what his f primary try problem is, 
I may be wrong on that because our information on that 
may not be completely up to date. I hope they will tell 
us what their present condition of servitude is if I have 
missed it. 

Now this is about the last part of the struc- 
ture of this two-day meeting. It begins to fall apart 
at this point because I am going to ask each of the 
seven gentlemen who are here, four of v/hom have intro- 
duced themselves, three of whom were delayed on a plane 
coming in and have come since we had the self -introductions 
each to state just in sort of off the cuff fashion any 
reaction he has so far or to really set the stage for 
our discussions during the next two days. I have told 
the men who were here early this morning they might speak 
or not speak at this point. One or two of them 
indicated to me perhaps they would rather reserve their 
statements until just before the jury goes out. But I 



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think, I am hoping each of them will have a few brief words 
to say, a few brief observations, things that I hope 
; will create some controversy. However, most of us learned 

controversy has already started. I had to defend 
I Mr. Eney against having said something I don't think he 

(. said and I am not clear now whether he said it or not. 

All of this will come out in the next two days. We should 
have some fun. I thought this was the end of the 
structure but just a moment ago I realized the staff in 
placing the names on the program, I find it is purely 

! 

11 alphabetic. I am going to follow that and call first 

12 on Dr. John Bebout who served as consultant to the 

13 Alaska Constitutional Convention, and is temporary 

14 chairman of the New York Constitutional Convention 

15 Commission of 1959. He is director of the Urban Study 

16 Center at Rutgers, State University of New Jersey. Dr. 

17 Bebout. Because for the rest of the time we will try 

18 doing this by sitting down so people will want to get 
- : freedom of interplay with people talking we might start 
- now and see how it works. Perhaps if each of you stay 

right where you are, I hope on each end Mr. Brooks or 



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1 Mr. Eney will let us know whether you can hear. You 

2 may have to raise your voices a little bit, particularly 

3 those closer to the front. 

4 MR ENEY: Let's announce if there are 

5 statements or questions by other participants that they 

6 state their names before speaking so that the reporter 

7 will have that information. 

8 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you, Vernon. One of 

9 the ground rules we have is that if you want to speak, 

10 you have to admit to your name. This is each timeyou 

11 speak. It is extremely hard for the steno typist to look 

12 U p each time. Even if you speak twice in five minutes, 

13 which I hope we won't let any of you do, give your name 

14 each time so that the stenotypist can get it. 

15 DR. BEBOUT: I will try to set a good 

16 example by being fairly brief. I will have to correct 

17 the record on one point. I was director, not chairman, 

18 of the temporary Commission on Revision and Simplification 

19 of the Constitution of the State of New York. I did 

20 have the privilege of being in Maryland two or three 

21 times back, I think, around the late forties when you 



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1 were trying to get a Constitutional Convention then. 

2 I predicted then some day you would have one. 

3 You are getting it perhaps earlier than I thought you 

4 might. That is my estimate of the rate of progress or 

5 movement in this business but it is greatly accelerating, 

6 as you know, around the country for a variety of reasons. 

7 I was very much impressed by Mr. Eney's statement and 

8 other statements this morning and also by this draft 

9 of proposed local government article. 

10 It is evident to me you have done some very 

11 hard thinking about the nature of your problems and 

12 particularly about the special nature of your problems. 

13 in Maryland. Of course, it is perfectly true, as Mr. 

14 Gallagher said, that you have this very difficult relation' 

15 ship between the old core city and the suburbs...^. I 

16 mig ht suggest in Maryland you don't have quite as much 

17 of that as we do in some other states because you don't 

18 have so many old core cities. Also that you are very 

19 fortunate in your tradition of relying mostly on county 

20 government or local government. 

21 I remember about fifteen or sixteen years 



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ago when Don Bowen was director of the Bureau of 
Government here at the University. We had some corres- 
pondence about the question of possibility of establishing 
some criteria for new incorporations. I took the 
position then, and was glad that the Bureau did too, 
that new incorporations should be discouraged, not 
encouraged. I am glad to hear you had none in the last 
ten years . 

I am also glad you have embraced what has come 
to be known as the Jefferson-Fordham Doctrine with 
respect to home rule, that is, the reversal of Dillon's 
rule, by the relatively simple expedient of asserting 
that the local governments concerned, in this case 
counties, shall have all governmental power or all 
legislative power not denied to them clearly by the 
state legislature. 

In other words, I think this puts you on 
the right track. I am fascinated by your thinking and 
the evolution of your ideas about regional government. 
It reminds me a little of the discussion we had in the 
Alaska Constitutional Convention about boroughs. They 



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1 decided that in addition to cities there should be only 
one other level of local government, namely boroughs, 

;• they didn't want counties because they learned counties 
were the seats of dirty politics back in the older 

5 states. They tried rotten boroughs instead. 

£ Boroughs might be organized or unorganized 

as would be the case with your regions . One of the 
interesting things about this arrangement was that in 
unorganized boroughs the Legislature would have the right 

— > 

in effect to act as if it were the borough council 

11 so in a region which didn't have full blown or adequate 

12 local government the Legislature could act more or 

13 less in lieu of the local council. 

14 I think I will stop now and learn more and 

15 I am sure I will react from time to time. I learned 

16 long ago that outsiders, whether experts or not, ought 

17 to be seen for quite a little while before they are heard 

18 too much when they are in another state. 

19 DR. SONDHEIM: Thank you, Dr. Bebout. For 

20 the benefit of the rest of you, after lunch, we will 

21 have our visitors sitting on the inside of this instead 



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of outside, so only President Kraushaar and I can't 
hear. So for the rest, because I know it was difficult 
for people who are behind Dr. Bebout, I think we will 
ask just for this first thing if you will stand and come 
up in the center. 

Next person alphabetically is one of the 
people you haven't met, Dr. Carlton Chute, Professor of 
Public Administration in New York University and a man 
who has developed studies of work on corridor develop- 
ment along the Eastern Seaboard. Dr. Chute. 

DR. CHUTE: I don't want to be talking at 
any great length here but it is a pleasure to be with 
you. Sorry we got in late because of the fog. What 
I have to say now I hope I will have time later, just 
a couple of preliminary remarks. 

Some years ago, about 20 years ago, I parti- 
cipated in the writing of a new constitution for the 
State of Missouri. As I look back on that experience, 
it seems to me we had very good historical vision and 
we understood pretty well the current problems of the 
state. Where we were deficient is in the very difficult 



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] area of looking toward the future. It is very easy to write 
■7 things into a constitution that meet the requirements of 

3 the year in which the constitution is drafted. It is very 
difficult to foresee some things but it is possible to 
foresee. 
6 In this case Missouri put into its constitu- 

tion what really amounts to a provision for a regional 
government although it is not called that and probably 
you wouldn't find it in the index. It was a forward 
K looking type of thing. It provided that not to exceed 

11 ten counties, as I recall it, can join together to do 

12 collectively anything that any one of the counties can 

13 do by itself. The theory was that there might be a 

14 need for a hospital in the Ozark part of the state where 

15 wealth is not great and four or five or six or eight 

16 counties might want jointly to build a hospital and 

17 with modern automotive transportation and highway 

18 systems this would serve a wide territory. There is no 

19 particular reason so far as I know to limit this to ten 
cC counties. 
21 I think this is the type of provision that 



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finds its way into a constitution and has no justification 

and later acts as an obstacle. They could just as 

well have said any two or more counties can join together 

to do whatever needs to be done that each one could do 

separately. 

About in the early 1950 f s the State of New 
York acted by constitutional amendment to remove a 
provision that in effect required each county in issuing 
bonds to be solely responsible for the bonds. So that 
through this amendment it was made possible for two or 
more counties to join in any project that any one county 
could do. It had the same over-all effect as they had 
in Missouri but you had to take out this obstacle in 
the constitution to arrive at this end. In short, I 
would suggest that you keep the provisions for regional 
government flexible. 

We are continually encountering relatively 
new problems. This problem of air pollution, is not 
one you find in the books dealing with metropolitan 
government thirty years ago. There is occasional mention 
of smoke control, not air pollution. Today we are over- 



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whelmed by it . 

What I am suggesting is that problems that 
wecbn't even think of today will be troubling some of 
us and our descendents in twenty or thirty years and 
we can't foresee all of these things or you can't fore- 
see the technical arrangements that will be necessary 
to cope with these problems . 

As I look over the growth of this urban 
corridor from Washington to Boston, it has certain 
attributes that are there but we don't often put them 
in words. We don't often recognize them. They are 
somewhat different in the Middle West. Not so different 
from the Pacific Coast. 

One is that very close to this corridor 
on the seaward side we have beaches, salt water, which 
is a great attraction for outdoor recreation. This is 
a tremendous asset for the thirty million or so people 
in this corridor. 

Also a few miles to the west we have mountains 
which are also a great recreational asset. Many of us 
tend to think of metropolitan areas as being rather tight 



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places, densely populated, people going an average of 



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five miles to work, we will say, and frequently driving, 



3 this is the dominant mode of making the journey to work 

today. We tend to overlook the fact that our popula- 

5 tion is highly mobile and growing more so all the time. 
c. 

So it is no problem for people of Washington or Balti- 
' more or Philadelphia or Trenton or New York or Hartford 

to go either eastward in general or perhaps to the 

south to get to a seashore or to go westward to get to 

mountain resorts. I think we will see more of this as 

our population disperses more widely. 

While we do have the type of regions that 
1 have been mentioned by earlier speakers, I suspect in 

the future we will see that they are tied more closely 
** to Baltimore and Washington and the surrounding counties. 

You will find more and more second homes and reservoirs 
* that can be used for fishing or boating or picnicking 

or pleasure drives that are really attractive and not 



cut up with sign boards and hotdog stands and diners 

and all the things that clutter the highways today. Per- 

21 

haps that is as much as I should say at the moment. 

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MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you very much, Dr. Chute. 

Next is a man who cannot be accused of having 
only an academic interest in this subject Dr. Lome 
Cumming, Department of Municipal Affairs, Tor onto. 
All people interested in regional or metropolitan 
government look to Toronto and Dr. Cumming has been 
long associated with development of federated services 
there. Dr. Cumming. 

DR. CUMMING: May I say first of all, gentle- 
man, I appreciate the honor of being invited to partici- 
pate in this conference, especially coming from not 
only a different state or province but from a different 
country. As it happened, in my rather brief career in 
the administration of municipal affairs, this problem, 
metropolitan government, devising metropolitan govern- 
ments, arose right from the beginning when I was appointed 
chairman of the Ontario Municipal Board. In January, 
1950 that was. At that time there was before the board 
an application by the City of Toronto for the outright 
amalgamation of the city and its thirteen suburbs. 

It must not be thought those thirteen suburbs 



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were similar in very many respects. Many were quite 
small. Many were villages. Many were what we call 
townships which in effect were rural municipalities, 
self-governing municipalities. 

Townships around Toronto had experienced the 
post-war population explosion to such an extent that 
not only were they unable to provide the necessary 
services for that population, but they were rapidly 
approaching financial difficulties which could be fore- 
seen so that metro-Toronto in the real sense was the 
result of local crises and in the original metro-Toronto 
act you will note that it is called An Act For the 
Federation of the City of Toronto and the Certain Named 
Suburbs For Financial and Other Purposes. 

In these days of comparative affluence and 
prosperity and so on, I think it must never be forgotten 
as you study metropolitan government in general and in 
this area perhaps that you must provide fiscally viable 
units. You must have some means in which the combined 
resources of a very large area, which you may call a 
region, can be mobilized. Because in fiscal affairs, 



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1 I think you will find that you will find some difficulty 
£ in floating your bonds or debentures in a dwindling 
5 capital market unless you have set up an organization 
which is worthy of credit. You cannot build highways , 

5 sewers, water mains, plants, all the rest of it, unless 

6 you can borrow money and you must be able to borrow 
money at the least cost. 

It would be presumptuous indeed for a 
resident and native of the province of Ontario to come 
down here and talk about constitutional revision in 

11 the State of Maryland. As it happens, we had no 

12 constitutional problems when metro-Toronto was created. 

13 The Province of Ontario in common with other provinces 

14 in Canada has sole and exclusive jurisdiction for the 

15 last hundred years with respect to municipal institutions. 

16 So to create a metro or any other type of local government 

17 in Ontario imposes no constitutional problem. 

18 Therefore, I am here more as a listener 
-: and to learn something and to continue my education in 

this particular problem. But we did create a metro in 
Toronto and the province did it by statute and it did 



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it thirteen years ago after very lengthy and controver- 
sy sial hearings in which two directly opposing theories 
3 of local gDvernment met head-on. Those who would 

centralize, those who would enlarge, those who said 

5 if a big city is good, a bigger city is better, and 

6 those who said no, there must be some better way to 
preserve the real democratic values of local government 
even though a whole group of local governments may be 
combined in a governmental unit with borrowing and 

10 taxing power to provide the regional services which are 

11 necessary for the development of the whole region. 

12 That problem I happened to be in on the 

13 very beginning. I was chairman of the Municipal Board 

14 which as you know in Ontario, for more than thirty 

15 years, has had sole jurisdiction to order .> annexations 
15 or refuse them, to change municipal boundaries, and 

17 all that sort of thing. These functions, which you 
15 will be talking about in considering your state consti- 
tution, have for thirty years in Ontario been transferred 
: ; to an administrative tribunal composed of full time 
21 persons like myself, not necessarily experts, but who 



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have to have, shall we say, a judicial temperament, who 
are bound by law to conduct their proceedings with due 
regard to proper process , required by law to conduct 
these hearings in public, to allow witnesses to be 
called, cross-examined, all the rest of it. 

It was not the function of the Municipal Board 
to devise a system of government. Thirteen years ago 
when we heard this application, it was our function 
only to say yes or no to the application of the City 
of Toronto. But in the course of the hearing of that 
application, there were controversial, bitter, very 
strong evidences of outright hostility between the 
central city and its surrounding suburbs, a feeling that 
they had nothing in common. Out of that long contentious 
hearing, after we had said no to the City of Toronto, 
we were encouraged by the provincial government to 
suggest an alternative and you are familiar generally, 
I think, here with the nature of that alternative. 

What were the fundamental things? First, we 
did not begin by disturbing the boundaries of any 
single municipality as it then existed. We took the city 



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and its thirteen suburbs as they were regardless of 




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whether they had any justification for their continued 




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existence, regardless of great differences in their 




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size and in their nature, and said you shall be a 




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federation for these specific purposes set out in the 




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legislation. In choosing the functions which were to 




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be transferred from the local government to the regional 




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government was very careful to choose at the beginning 




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only those which everyone admitted had to be handled 




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on a regional basis if they were going to be handled 




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at all. Water supply, main water mains, but not the 




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retail or local distribution of water or the construc- 




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tion of local water mains. Sewerage plants and major 

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sewerage works but not local ones. Main highways, 




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arterial roads but not local roads. And so on. Those 




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services purposely/ were kept to the very minimum 




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because it was hoped that with the type of government 




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we were setting up we would provide a government which 




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would be composed of men who by sitting around the same 




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table would be able to solve their problems and be faced 




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with the necessity of making the decision. 






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1 The other distinctive thing that happened 

2 in Ontario and may not happen here is this. This 

3 actual positive action taken in 1953, thirteen years ago, 

4 had followed at least twenty to twenty-five years 

5 waiting for the local governments themselves to come 

6 up with any voluntary scheme on their own behalf. This 

7 may have some significance here or not. I don't know. 

8 Secondly, it was designed from the beginning 

9 to be a flexible arrangement. First of all, to start 

10 with a few functions, then to wait patiently for public 

11 opinion to develop to the point where other functions 

12 could be added, and other functions were over the years 

13 added and the metropolitan Toronto Act was amended 

14 every year except the very first one until a great 

15 all-embracing amendment made this year in which finally 

16 the thirteen municipalities by statutory action of 

17 the government of Ontario were consolidated into six, 

18 one city and six boroughs. 

1 I was very interested to hear this expression 

&C borough because borough is a new term in Canada and 

everybody says we know what a town is or city or village 



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and know what a county is but don't know what is a 




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borough. This is a story in itself. 




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We now have instead of one city and thirteen 




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municipalities of varying sizes, we have one city and 




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five boroughs. That involved a good deal of discussion. 




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But the most interesting thing was that although we 




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had a rather lengthy session in cabinet caucus, when 




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the bill was introduced and local municipalities were 




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passing out of existence realized that the government 




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felt that many of them were too small to do a proper 




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job even to do their own local functions, that was 




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only a year ago now, but we hear no more echos of it. 




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On January 1 we will have only six units in metro-Toronto. 




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In my humble opinion we will always have 




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some units of local government to do the local jobs 




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and to do them better and to separate off and do better 




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the regional jobs which are the functions of the 




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metropolitan government. 




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As I say, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I 




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should take any more of your time. I am extremely glad 




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to be here and to hear this discussion. 






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We are having so-called corridor problems. 
We are facing in Ontario right now a problem, we have 
set up one metropolitan region, we have at least three 
or four others in which we are moving fairly rapidly 
toward the same system with due regard to the willingness 
of the local people to face up to this type of problem. 
We also have the Lake Ontario on the south such as 
your sea coast here, beautiful resort, hilly, lake country, 
not too many miles to the north, everybody concentrating 
more and more on the need to preserve these bountiful 
resources for the benefit of a much larger population. 
I am very glad to be here. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you very much, Dr. dimming. 

I don't think any meeting on public adminis- 
tration, I don't think you could hold one without 
Dr. Luther Gulick being here, he is really Dean of 
Public Administration. He has served Baltimore in the 
past as an adviser on various things. One of the 
reasons I have to say to you, Dr. Gulick, one of the 
reasons I am not going to read the biographies that 
have been handed to me is that in copying this one I 



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3 think you would be interested to know and you would be 
happy to know this says in addition to being professor 

; at State College of Potsdam, New Jersey, you were born 

4 on September 23, 1922, and married in 1948. I have 

5 been handed Dr. Luther Gulick, Jr.'s, biography. 

6 I can tell you about Dr. Gulick' s son. We all know 

7 about Dr. Gulick. 

8 DR. GULICK: Before the Chairman brings up 

9 any more stories like that, I better get on my feet. 

10 Unlike these other experts who have come here to learn, 

11 I have come here because I have got my mind all made up 

12 on a number of points that are germane to this discussion. 

13 Number one, metropolitan development is 

14 here to stay. This is not a temporary change in the 

15 pattern of human settlement. The reason we can say 

16 that with complete confidence is that when you look to 

17 see what it is, human gathering in large areas arises 

18 because we work and have to earn a living, because we 

19 produce and have to find a market, because we consume 

20 and we want a great opportunity to choose. What the 

21 metropolitan area gives in greater measure than any other 



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pattern of human settlement is freedom of choice, freedom 
of choice, in an environment of great variety and 
opportunity which is within easy reach. You can go out 
and get it. 

There is no other pattern of human settlement 
that gives a man who is producer, a consumer, and an 
en j oyer of life the freedom of choice in an environment 
of rich variety within easy reach. For that reason this 
thing is going on. It is going on because this is the 
nature of man, the worker, the consumer, one who relishes 
the process of life. All right. That's number one. 

Number two is that the state has an overriding 
responsibility for effectively structuring the mechanisms 
of self-government and local government . We have done a 
lot of talking in the United States about home rule but 
there are certain aspects of the creation of local 
institutions and the determination of the geographic 
boundaries of those areas which cannot be left to the 
decision of those who live within those areas. I am 
not saying they shouldn't be consulted but I am saying 
what Dr. Cumming told us has a very great significance for 



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us. The Toronto plan was fully discussed, It was not 
c voted on, it was determined under the responsibility of 
: the overriding governmental area of the province, which 

had set up careful devices for dealing v/ith annexation 
5 and the rest of it, but which in discharge of its 

responsibility determined the na ture of the boundary 

and the nature of the basic distribution of powers which 

were assigned to the local institutions. 

You build on the institutions of the past. 

10 This controls to a certain extent the things you can 

11 do and you can lead men to do. But you reach into the 

12 future and a constitutional convention is the ideal 

13 time when you can get a broad presentation of the new 

14 thinking that reaches into the future and through which 

15 the state can discharge its overriding responsibility 

16 with reference to the nature of the structures and the 

17 functions of the subordinate units of government within 

18 the state. 

19 That's all I am going to say at the moment, 
: Mr. Chairman, but I didn't want you to think I came here 

with an open mind . 



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(Applause.) 

MR SONDHEIM: I know, Dr. Gulick, you have 
never been the center of controversy before. I predict 
you will have a new experience here the next two days. 

I think we said we were going to stop for 

lunch at quarter of one but I think maybe we might hear 

from Dr .Victor Jones before we break for lunch. Dr. 

Jones is professor of Political Science at University 

of California at Berkeley, a place some of us have heard 

been 
about recently. He has/ one of the most active proponents 

of metropolitan government but I believe he is also 

here because he is delighted to come to the East Coast 

and get away from the West Coast a moment. I am surprised 

he didn't bring Clark Kerr with him. 

DR. JONES: Because I don't associate 
myself with Clark Kerr's position. I have to say 
this because I know the press is here. Whether I really 
believe this or not, I just have to say it in order to 
be able to talk to students when I return. I think the 
president of the University would understand this. 

I don't want you to think that Luther Gulick 



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1 is the only man with a closed mind. My mind has been 

: closed since I went to the University of Chicago. 

: I certainly do not come here to learn any- 

thing from you that I could take back and say to 

5 people in California, this is the way to do it, 

6 because California is so different. It is so different 
from the State of Maryland. I think this is a very 
important thing for us to remember. You have emphasized 
this already. I don't think Maryland is so different 

from some other states in the Union, particularly other 

i 

11 states in this northeastern corridor. In many ways 

12 it reminded me, John, of Connecticut although you don't 

13 have the steady habits, thank God, that they pride 

14 themselves upon having there. 

15 But steady habits or not, the State of 

16 Connecticut is seriously considering, at least in the 

17 stage of a commission somewhat similar to the 

18 Constitutional Convention Committee that is the 
1 occasion for this conference, considering how it can 

reorganize and re-orient the whole State of Connecticut 
: - as a metropolitan region. One of the things I think 



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j you ought to consider here as a fact of life is that 
the State of Maryland is in many ways as much of a 
metropolitan state as the State of Connecticut is. 

I don f t think this is true of California. 

5 California is coming to be an Empire State. The north 

6 doesn't want the south and the south doesn't want the 
north except its water and they will get it now with 
reapportionment and the new governor. I mean the 

: governor to be sworn in at midnight on the first of 

10 January in Connecticut. 

11 But even though the State of California 

12 may be the prototype of the kind of metropolitan 

13 development that Dr. Gulick said is inevitable, and 

14 irreversible, may be the pattern of the future, and if 

15 you go very far from downtown New York, you begin to 

16 see the same kinds of patterns in this Eastern Seaboard 

17 development you see in California. 

18 Anyway, you can't call yourselves. Metro-Cal 
1 as we can out there. That doesn't mean we are trying 
£C to lose weight. We are not, we are trying to gain 
21 population very, very rapidly. 



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1 But it seems to me that the burden of the 

2 recommendations of the Committee to the Constitutional 
Convention is really to get the state out of the business 

•i of making metropolitan decisions and governing a large 

5 metropolis. 

One of the things, I was talking to Franklin 

Burdette about the fact that, this is a fact of life that 
wasn't mentioned too, in almost all southern states the 
legislative representatives from the counties are in 
- reality part of the local governmental structure. In 

11 Alabama, I know, where I grew up, at least when I was 

12 growing up, when the Legislature was in session, almost 

13 formally you had a combination of the legislative 

14 delegation from Jefferson County and the Jefferson County 

15 Board of County Commissioners acting together to govern 

16 the county. When the Legislature wasn't in session, I 

17 am sure they continued to participate in this but they 

18 didn't do it openly and visibly. 

19 This is undoubtedly one of the reasons the 

cC Council of Governments in Washington, Washington Council 

from 

21 of Governments, has legislative representatives/Maryland 



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and from Virginia. This is not true in other councils 
of government around the country. I think it makes 
sense in this area. I am not suggesting that this 
continue, be formalized or anything like that. 

I am trying to raise the question of the 
active planning and decision making and probably 
administrative role that the state itself, a state such 
as Maryland, will have to play in the future. 

Another thing I would like to mention is the 
desirability perhaps of recognizing in Maryland and 
Virginia of all places, of course, but recognizing that 
everywhere this is going to be true, increasingly true, 
that the governments of our metropolitan areas are going 
to be divided, shared, shall we say, not divided, shared 
with state government, with local governments, and with 
the Federal Government. I don't know whether this should 
be taken account of in drawing up your constitutional 
provisions or not. But one of the things that is likely 
to happen in this country is that the states and localities 
unless they can reorganize themselves in order to play 
this role effectively, the states and the counties and 



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local governments in our metropolitan areas will come to 

hand 
be just hand maidens, administrative/maidens, that is 

the worst kind of hand maidens, I guess, administrative 

hand maidens of the Federal Government unless we can 

organize ourselves and orient ourselves so that we can 

play a role at the stage when the great intergovernmental 

urban programs are being formulated. This is the only 

way we can act. Otherwise states and local governments 

will be relegated to the role of reacting only. 

It seems to me a Constitutional Convention 
ought to ask itself how can it structure itself and its 
local governments in order to enable it to play this 
role in the future which is going to be an intergovern- 
mental future. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Thanks very much. I think we 
will hear from Dr. Keith and Dr. Norton immediately after 
lunch. 

(Luncheon recess at 12:55 p.m. to reconvene 
at 2:30.) 



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DR. SONDHEIM: To conclude the observations 
that we asked from our visitors this morning, not the 
conclusion, there are two of our visitors from whom we 
still want to hear, first is Dr. John Keith, Executive 
Vice President of the Regional Plan Association. 

DR. KEITH: Dr. Chute asked me whether my 
mind was closed or open. Luther Gulick supplied the 
answer. He said it is open at both ends. V. T hat I heard 
going in and as it came out I will try to react to the 
remarks as they passed through. 

One was that some of these, the preceding 
speakers were talking about the state's role. It did 
seem to me as I read your material that perhaps your 
convention may be looking at Maryland as being isolated 
from the rest of this great metropolitan area grov?ing 
around it. We in New York are sensitive to the fact we 
are really within three states. I suspect you will 
become more sensitive to that fact. One of the things you 
may want to look at in the document itself or proposals 
or the document is the provisions for interstate compact 
arrangements and to free these up as much as is possible. 



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1 As for the whole megalopolitan area, I 

2 suspect the only way we are going to be able to handle 

3 this is on a planning basis, I suppose by some federal 

4 arrangements or interstate arrangements. Certainly I 

5 would put my eye on any provisions in the constitution 

6 that have to do with interstate compacts and make sure 

7 that they are free. We find this is one of the areas 

8 in New York where we are heading into a Constitutional 

9 Convention we are going to be particularly sensitive to. 

10 Having covered your outward look, I would like 

11 to make an observation about the inward which is what 

12 you are planning to do here. I am very pleased to see the 

13 approach you are talking about, as John Bebout called it, 

14 inverting the Dillon Rule, which would free up your 

15 localities to take what I call the initial power to act. 

16 That's really all they can ever hope to have, to be able 

17 to move ahead on their own when matters need to be handled, 

18 rather than as in the old Dillon concept to have to apply 

19 to the Legislature for a positive power. 

20 In this way when the locality has this initial 
23 power, then it is up to the Legislature, if it doesn't 



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seem to conform to a state need, to byy an affirmative 
act, this is what is tough for a Legislature, to take away 
the power from a locality. I think your concept, which 
has actually existed in Texas and existed in Alaska, is 
5 a good one. 

e But having said that, I notice that you are 

going to make the county the locus of this power. I 
understand in talking at lunch that in Maryland the 
county is an instrument of some strength already. This 
10 does make some sense. Then you are trying to insert be- 
ll tween the state and county a region. The region apparently 

12 I am not sure I got this point right, but it seemed to 

13 me the region is to draw its power from the county 

14 rather than from the superior level. It seems to me 

15 you are asking for the same old trouble that you are 

16 trying to get away from by doing this. As a matter of 
fact, it is analogus to the states, I suppose, giving 

IS the Federal Government, certain, deputizing the Federal 
1: Government with certain delegated powers which ultimately 
: must grow. If that's your plan and you really believe 
21 this can happen, so much the better. But my guess is 



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1 that you would want to look at the relationship of this 

2 region to the state and perhaps think about the state 

3 delegating the power directly to the region rather than 
* asking the county to do so at some future date. 

5 Mr. Cuming brought up a point which I thought 

6 very good. As a matter of fact, Dr. Goodnow in a book 

7 to my great surprise after I had written a book for Dr. 

8 Gulick on home rule, in Texas, thought I had arrived at 

9 the Holy Grail in view of this inversion of powers, I 

10 discovered Dr. Goodnow, your own Dr. Goodnow, had arrived 

H at this thought some sixty years previously. When he 

12 had arrived at the way of relating the localities and 

13 states the same way you are proposing to do, he added one 

14 other thing from his observations in Europe, I thought 

15 this was a classic, from his observations in Europe, 

16 that we would have to move away from legislative control 
IV of localities to administrative control. Didn't you 

18 notice this was what Ontario does, that they don't fuss 

19 around at all the little matters of local concern by 

20 legislative action? In Ontario they did it by administra^ 

21 tive proceedings. The major things are handled by the 



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1 Legislature and the Legislature's hands are not tied, 

2 the Legislature's hands would not be tied under the 

3 concept toward which you are moving. 

4 My final point would be this. I was aware 

5 of this question of classification. I do think I put 

6 my eye on that question because that is the hole through 

7 which the Legislature could write the proposal that you 

8 are devising. Because if there is unlimited class if ica- 

9 tion, the Legislature can simply, if it wishes, interfere 

10 in such a way that the open ended powers in the sense 

11 for the localities, whether they be, as you are planning 

12 to do it, through the counties, or whatever fashion you 

13 turn to the municipalities, could be destroyed. 

14 I would suggest to you the way out of this 

15 is a very tight classification restriction and then 

16 moving to some sort of administration over view of 

17 what the localities do. Administrative overview is much 

18 more flexible than a legislative one. Thank you. 

19 DR SONDHEIM: Thank you, Dr. Keith. 

20 The anchor man on this team, I have to remind 

21 you this is alphabetic, no one is named Zimmerman, we 



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will now hear from Dr. James A. Norton, president of 
Greater Cleveland Association Foundation. I think he 
is professor of area development at Case Institute. 

DR. NORTON: I wish I had spoken before 
lunch for a couple of reasons. One is I am sure it would 
be much easier to keep their attention before the apple 
pie than at the present time. 

The other reason is it seems to be the role 
of some person in every series of speakers to say some 
things that destroy the nice continuity that has been 
moving along heading toward some very good discussion 
points and in comes someone who wants to sort of change 
the subject in a slightly different way. It would 
have been much easier to ignore what I am going to say 
had it come before lunch than new but I assure you ray 
feelings will not be hurt if you ignore what I say. 

I think when we start talking about problems 
of a metropolitan area or more particularly problems of 
the megalopolis which is what we are really concerned 
with, we see several different types of problems. 

The problems we like to talk about most are 



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1 that I classify generally as those that relate to 

2 geography. This includes such things as transportation, 

3 open space, water supply, sewering, sewage disposal, 

4 air pollution, water pollution, et cetera, space is the 

5 key element here. 

6 We like to talk about these for, I think, two 

7 reasons. One is pretty much an open and shut case. 

8 There is a logic behind these that demands that they be 

9 handled this way, that you can use in speaking to the 

10 most benighted person. 

11 Secondly, the Federal Government has already 

12 helped with some strong legislative measures in these 

13 fields so that most of the items that I described are 

14 already things we have to consider on a regional basis 

15 simply if we are to get funds from the Federal Government. 

16 That is a very persuasive thing. 

17 There is another type problem that I think 
1 you have to be aware of. Frankly, it is the tough 
1 side of the megalopolitan problem. These are the 

economic-social problems you face. Of course, one of 
the key ones that we all have to be aware of and you and 



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I will struggle with until we die is the problem of 
race in modern society. We have to recognize that one 
of the things we are talking about when we talk about 
metropolitan, regional or megalopolitan government is 
5 redistribution of power that in essence changes the 
£ relationships of the races. I don't think we can escape 

that. That pervades most of these things but let's 
enumerate one or two others. 

There is industrial location, there is the 

10 question of housing, the ridiculousness of a housing 

i 

11 market that is divided half white, half Negro or worse 

12 still, Negro-white, inner c city- suburban. There is the 

13 whole question of education. Education has been handled 

14 in the United States in a rather miserable fashion. We 

15 have just finally waked up to the fact we have some 

16 problems finally in the last fifteen years. The 

17 technological changes that are coming and the demands 

18 that are being put on education are so great that we are 

19 going to find new ways of educating people in the United 

20 States and of organizing education or we are going to be 
dealing with only the insignificant parts of the problem, 



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education is one of the key parts of the problem. , 

Another one we are quite aware of now is 
the poverty aspect of all of these problems. We have 
a War of Poverty going on which probably will be changed 
in the next couple years to be something like a demonstra- 
tion cities operation or something else. But in essence it 
is the problem of the haves and have-nots and the fact 
that geographically and governmentally we have put the 
haves in one place and the have-nots in another and we 
are talking about a redistribution of power when we talk 
about megalopolitan problems. 

All up and down the line almost as pervasive 
as the subject of race is another question that comes out. 
That is the question of participation in public affairs. 
If you take a look at Berkeley and Mr. Savio and 
his ideas, which many people identify as being on the 
far left, or if you take a look at the John Birch Society, 
which many people identify as being on the far right, you 
say each is saying the same thing. They are really 
brothers under the skin. They are saying how horrible 
it is that we have this tremendous government aid we 



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don't have any real control over it. We have this 
tremendous society and V7hile it gives us all the things 
we want from the point of view of affluence and social 
choice, physical choice, choice of goods, we still feel 
that it is something that we can't really handle. Both 
the John Birchers and Mario Savio and other persons are 
concerned with this matter of participation in society, 
how do we arrange it so we feel we have a chance to 
really participate in what is going on? 

This is not something that is easily answered 
Probably there is no voting system that we can devise 
that will really change people's feelings about partici- 
pation in spite of the fact that this is the traditional 
American, small d, democratic approach to this subject 
but people of all types are demanding that they have a 
right to have a say. If we get smaller governments or 
larger governments, we are going to have to allow for 
that in a way that people who are providing for public 
hearings, for local councils, for neighborhood groups, 
for small municipalities, for metropolitan governments 
have been thinking about. This is what we are facing in 



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the next three, five, ten years. Mark it up and keep 
it in mind. 
3 These problems, economic social problems, are 

the ones that make me lean so strongly to the idea that 
l Luther Gulick expressed, the state has an overriding 
C responsibility for the determination of local government 
It ties right in with the point Victor Jones made which 
is if we are going to work on these problems, we have to 
have local creativity. The local creativity doesn't 

10 come out of the small municipality. It comes out of the 

11 minds of people working on problems that are local. 

12 You know the only people who can really work on this 

13 totality of problems are not those right in the small 

14 part of it but those who have an overview of it. That 

15 is the state government. 

16 I think you have a unique opportunity here 

17 with a Constitutional Convention to come to grips with 

18 some of these problems but I wouldn't kid you in any 

19 way that it is going to be easy :or that by discussing 
: forms of government we arc going to come up with answers 
21 to these problems. 



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1 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you very much, Dr. Norton 

2 We have had a marriage of Berkeley free speech movement 

3 and John Birch Society. I turn it over to you. 

4 DR. KRAUSHAAR: I might start with a state- 

5 ment I heard the other day on the radio that they had 

6 invented a new toy for Christmas, a toy which was 

7 designed to help adjust children to the modern world. It 

8 took the form of a puzzle. No matter how you put it 

9 together, you were always wrong. 

1° I think we approach the discussion with some 

sense of the fact that we are not confronted with 
an easy task of, say, framing a new constitution for 

13 the State of Maryland, which would find universal 

14 satisfaction. The time is now at hand when we want to 

15 hear from all participants in this conference and we will 

16 turn it into a kind of seminar. 

17 Maybe we ought to have at least some general 

18 understanding of some ground rules. We would like to 

19 discourage long speeches and eloquence and oratory if 
we possibly can. Also please, would you, for the sake 



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yourself by name so that it can become a matter of the 
record. 

We had thought for a time we might follow or 
try to follow the list of issues and questions which I 
presume you have before you as a kind of guide. But the 
more we examined it in light of what has already been 
said, it seemed to us to be rather an artificial kind 
of procedure and so I think the best thing probably at 
this point is simply to throw the meeting open to dis- 
cussion because I am sure we have a lot of bottled-up 
comment that has been shut away this morning as a result 
of the various statements made and we are now taking 
the cork out and accepting the consequence that will 
ensue from uncorking this bottled-up demand. Who 
will speak? 

MR. BOILEAU: Raymond Boileau, 
Maryland Mun5.cipal League. I would start off by objecting 
to a statement made this morning as to what constitutes 
a basic principle of local government in Maryland. The 
statement made by Mr.Eney was that the county was exclu- 
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covering the entire state, I would have to agree with 
him but in certain instances where specialized services 
were demanded by population centers or in the case of 
service centers, the city municipality has served a very 
useful purpose, I think this should be continued. There 
is a place for municipality in the world. Take in the 
State of Maryland and rather than take up your time 
in this initial statement, I will hold off until we get 
into municipalities specifically. But I wanted to 
object to that basic principle. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Would anyone like to reply 
to that or a rejoinder of any kind? 

DR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Boileau is Executive 
Director of Maryland Municipal League, he is here as 
somewhat of a partisan. 

MR. BOILEAU °. I may be a voice crying in the 
wilderness. I don't know. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I wondered if Charlie Benton 
wanted to say anything about that very issue inasmuch as 
he represents a city of some size here. 

MR. BENTON: Charles Benton, Director of 



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Finance, Baltimore City. It is ray understanding the 
proposed constitution would constitute Baltimore City 
as a county. I don't know as our position for this 
reason would be identical to the one that was just 
advocated by my friend Ray Boileau. 

Since you called upon me, however , I might 
take this opportunity to perhaps elaborate on the 
position stated by the Mayor in reference to the power 
of the Legislature to create regional government. 

Our position is that the Legislature should 
have such power by three-fifths vote whenever it involves 
the consolidation of existing units of government such 
as a consolidation of two complete counties. 

However, when the proposed merger cuts 
across existing political boundary lines in which it 
might be proposed to combine part of a county with 
another county, then it is our position that such should 
be subjected to a referendum of the territories involved. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr c Eney, I'm afraid you are 
going to be on the spot until closing time tomorrow. I 
think you are honor bound to respond to some of these 



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things on behalf of your Commission. 

MR. ENEY: I purposely would not like to 
use up too much time in response but instead make my 
response to Mr. Benton by inviting discussion of this 
very issue. I am sorry Mr. D'Alesandro had to leave the 
room a moment because I know he has, putting it mildly, 
decided views on this subject. 

Let me amplify a little what the Commission 
has been talking about in considering in this area to 
simply throw it on the table for more discussion because 
we realize that is a very sensitive area and one in 
which there is bound to be substantial controversy. 

There are really three kinds of referenda 
you are talking about here. Referenda of the acquiring 
county or subdivision, the one to which you propose to 
add the area, the referenda of the people in the spoils 
of war, the area that is going to be pawned, transferred 
from one to the other. Thirdly, the one that is 
most often lost sight of, the one, I think, Mr. Benton 
and I know Mr. D'Alesandro are particularly concerned 
about which is the referenda of the people who are going 



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to be losers. 

2 The problem which you have here, practical 

2 problem, is if you subject the question of the Legislature' 

4 powers to change the boundaries of any area, municipality, 

g county, region, makes no difference, to a referendum, 

g you limit it. If you subject it to two referenda, you 

rjr limit it still more. If you subject it to three referenda, 

8 you have perhaps made it impossible. 

9 There have been no boundary changes of Maryland 

10 counties or cities in -- the last change in the 

11 BaltimoreCity Boundary was 1918. No changes in 

12 recent years. No doubt this is a very strong contributing 

13 factor, granted the correctness of philosophy that you 

14 ought not to be able to move people back and forth from 

15 one subdivision to another without their consent, the 

15 consent of those who are acquiring people and those from 

17 whom you are taking them away, how you 

13 solve the practical problem. 

19 MR. BENTON: Mr. Sondheim, if I may respond -- 

20 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Benton. 

21 MR. BENTON: To cite a ridiculous situation 



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1 in an effort to prove a point, should the Legislature 

2 decree that the Bethlehem Steel works at Sparrows Point 

3 should be merged with the city, we would welcome such a 
* marriage but I don't feel the residents of Baltimore 

5 County would do so. We feel that, of course, we could 

6 put this just in the reverse. 

7 For this reason, we feel whenever the proposed 

8 merger does cut up an existing political subdivision, 

9 it should be subjected to referendum of the areas 

*0 affected and should only be consummated should a majority 

^ of the residents of each affected area agree to such 

** a consolidation. 

13 MR. SONDHEIM: You mean area giving up 

1 4 the area and area acquiring, you mean that by affecting? 

15 HR # BENTON: Yes, and perhaps I should further 

16 elaborate on this. A referendum of the entire 

17 political subdivision that is to be affected by such 

18 a merger even though only part of the subdivision might 
be involved. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: In your illustration Baltimore 
County. 



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1 MR. BENTON: That is one. 

T MR. SONDHEIM: Quite an illustration I might 

say. I think both Dr. Cooper and Senator Hughes would 

join us, might change their report if this happened. 
5 MR. HUME: I think that Mr. Benton is 

G entirely correct in his judgment about what Baltimore 

County's attitude might be. I think this is probably 

one I think, Charlie, we do agree on. 
5 I think that there is no question that the 

10 Baltimore County officialdom, whoever they might be, would 

11 feel very strongly as a political matter as well as other 

12 kind of matter that this ought to be a referendum of the 

13 whole jurisdiction. Politically this is a fact of life. 

14 Whether it should be so or not is perhaps another question. 

15 There are two or three questions I would like 

16 to raise that might be thrown into the discussion at this 

17 time, without trying to determine whether or not this 

18 is an area, whether or not the regional government is a 

19 good concept, there are two or three questions that I 
2C think we ought to answer for ourselves. First of all, 
21 what is it that the regional government might be doing 



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1 that could not be done through a joint exercise of 

2 powers? I would like to say that I strongly am in 

3 favor of a very broad joint exercise of power provision 

4 in the Constitution, not only jurisdiction within the state, 

5 but also those without the state. 

6 The second thought I would like to raise is 

7 whether putting the concept of a regional government 

8 in the Constitution, perhaps this is going to scare more 

9 people than it is going to bare the issue. Perhaps this 

10 will do raor e harm in the long-run toward getting a 

11 reginal government concept across than it will help. 

12 Icbn't know but I at least raise the question. 

13 The third question I would raise is what 

14 does the concept of a regional government do for the 

15 metropolitan Washington area? 

16 Although I am now in Baltimore County, I 

17 did play a rather active role in getting the Council 

18 of Governments going in Washington. There you, of 

19 course, have a tri-state area. I am not really sure 

20 dealing with just one regional government for Montgomery 

21 and Prince Georges is helpful as compared to working with 



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1 one. I know that one suggestion has Frederick County 

2 in the metropolitan Washington complex. I am not sure 

3 this is a really fair evaluation of the situation. 

4 The fourth question I would raise is, we have 

5 already heard one comment, whether raising a question 

6 as of towns versus counties, I raise a question of if 

7 you set up a regional government, aren't you setting up 

8 a new inter level conflict, of the kind that we have in 

9 many states, to a very profound degree? 

10 I think one of the things Maryland is blessed 

H with is we haven't had these conflicts with extreme 

12 division of powers as in many other states. Isn't 

13 setting up regional government perhaps fragmenting the 

14 responsibility further? 

15 I am not saying these questions don't have 

16 answers, I am sure perhaps they do, but I think we 

17 ought to try to find answers to them before we embrace 

18 the concept with open arms. 

19 Ma. h&RBUIlY: I suggest that one answer to 

20 what Mr. Hume has just said could be found in the 

21 opening remarks that this is one, perhaps the only subject 



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1 on which he and Mr. Benton ever agreed. Both of them 

2 being important, vitally important administrators in 

3 Baltimore County and Baltimore City, I think the prospects 

4 of joint operation as between those two agencies is made 

5 reasonably clear. 

6 I think it shows that you have got to face 

7 up to the fact if you are going to have any kind of 

8 rational government of areas, of metropolitan areas, it 

9 has to be imposed from the outside. Mr. Gallagher, 

10 I think, very brilliantly gave you the reasons for it. 

11 The flight to the suburbs is a form of narcotic. It is 

12 an attempt to close your eyes to reality and to escape 

13 responsibilities. You cannot any more stop people from 

14 doing that than you can stop them from drinking alcohol. 

15 If you are going to deal with these terrible problems 

16 that are growing, that are creating, making cur inner 

17 cities into cancers, you are going to have to do it as 

18 was done in the province of Ontario. 

19 I don't have any doubt in my own mind that 

20 if you are gdng to be serious about this thing, you are 

21 going to have to provide the power in the State Legislature 



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to create these governments and to do it without consent 

Some reference has been made to annexation. 
My memory may be playing me false, Mr. Benton, but my 
recollection is annexation in 1918 was shoved down the 
throats of Anne Arundel County and that it was done over 
there, they all voted against it down there. In fact, 
my senior partner, when I first came to the Bar, was 
George Williams. He ran on a platform for Mayor of 
Baltimore City against James Preston, I think, and 
this was the very thing, platform on which he ran was 
that Anne Arundel County should have a right to say 
whether they were to be incorporated into Baltimore City 
and they were not given that right. If they had been 
given that right today, Baltimore City's boundaries 
would have been as they were established in 1898. I 
forget where they ended but it was somewhere along about 
Cold Spring Lane or maybe it was North Avenue. Cold 
Spring Lane, was it? At any rate, this is just a fact of 
life. I think that I agree wholly with the vic\;s of 
the Commission that if there is to be any form of metro- 
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has got to exist in the State Legislature to create. 
Mr. D'Alesandro. 

3 MB.. D'ALESANDRO: I would like to carry the 

4 thought of Mr. Marbury one step further. I draw 

5 reference to the comment made by Mr. Cuming this morning 

6 when he said that whatever organization you arrive at 

7 has to be an organization worthy of credit. You have to 

8 be able to maintain some fiscal structure to float 

9 bonds and what have you. 

ID The example given by Charlie Benton I would 

11 like to put in reverse. In the southeast section of 

12 Baltimore, that area we call Canton area, we have 

13 close to 70,000 jobs, it is our industrial base of this 

14 city. You have Lever Brothers, Fischer Body, Chevrolet, 

15 Western Electric. Just suppose for argument's sake, 

16 notwithstanding the weight of the Baltimore City delega- 

17 tion down at Annapolis in a reapportioned General Assembly, 

18 for argument's sake, if the legislative power without 

19 local referendum were allowed to pass to change the 

20 boundary line, that this section was shifted by the 

21 Legislature into Baltimore County. Not talking about the 



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rights of the people to judge for themselves, forget 


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about the people. But what about the assessable base 




3 


of, say, the City of Baltimore under that, which could 




4 


be considered a stretch of the imagination to concede 




5 


that actually happening but suppose it would, suppose 




6 


we would lose the crux of our industrial base in this 




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city. What is the fiscal structure, what are we left to 




8 


deal with? How do you answer that question? That's 




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what I would like to ask you, Mr. Eney. 




10 


On the other part, I hope you don't find 




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me, I am trying to be constructive in my criticism, 




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but I think one of the most important things you drew 




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reference to this morning is the fact that in Kentucky 




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their constitutional revision was rejected. That's what 




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we have to take into consideration here. No matter how 




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good a plan you have, you have to have a plan that 




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will pass the voters. I think in taking into considera- 




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tion the provisions like this that have to be, I think, 




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amended to at least give the people the right to vote. 




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I go along with Charlie Benton's suggestion, right of 




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1 DR KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Eney, I think you are 

2 elected to comment on the last several comments. 

3 MR. ENEY: I am sure there are many other 

4 comments. 

5 I would like to hear from out of state people. 

6 MR. MURPHY: Howard Murphy. I think in all 

7 these problems we have, the great difficulty finally 

8 boils down to human nature. I was quite impressed with 

9 Dr. Norton's statement and Mr. Frank Gallagher's state- 

10 ment this morning that with all the problems of pollution, 

11 water, economics, taxation, and whatnot, we can't lose 

12 sight of the fact of human nature. This particular 

13 argument that is before us at this present time as to 

14 whether it is better to have the right of the people to 

15 say what should be done or whether it is better to say 

16 leave it to the Legislature or act in the form done in 

17 Toronto, the question is whether or not we are going to 

18 be able to get anywhere knowing the facts as they are. 

19 We start out by saying that the people who move to 

20 Baltimore County and Anne Arundel County and suburban 

21 areas move because of freedom of choice of fresh air, 



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good educational facilities, good living facilities, and 






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what have you. They were getting away from the 






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problems of the inner-city with the decaying of the old 






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cities, the slum areas, whatnot. Developing an idea 






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within themselves that we are in this area, that's that 






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area, those people should take care of it, they should 






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be responsible for it. Regardless of the fact that they 






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use the facilities of the interior city like the stadium, 






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Lyric Theater, their jobs, and whatnot. That was 


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infinitesimal. It was just a very selfish thing on 






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their part that I am here and I am satisfied here, I don't 






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want to take on this additional responsibility and head- 






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aches of the big city despite the fact I am there. 






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in a democratic form of government in which we shouldn't 






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take any action at all without consent of the people. 






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Yet there comes a time, a question in my mind as to 






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whether or not people are in position to actually decide 






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those things if we want to move ahead as we said, yes, 






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we have to move ahead, we can't continue to go in the same 






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old system we had in the past. Baltimore is a city 300 








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1 years old, full of tradition. We don't act very fast. 

2 We are great traditionalists. There comes a time, we 

3 live in an era today when things happen overnight. 

4 We never heard about air pollution until recently. Things 

5 of these types. The basic question we are discussing 

6 right now is which is the most feasible way of bringing 

7 about, we all admit you have to bring it about, we 

8 all admit we can't continue to live in this type system 

9 we have. The question now is how do we go about it? 

10 That's just my reaction. 

11 MR. BAILEY: Herbert Bailey. It has been 

12 my privilege to live in five different states in my 

13 lifetime. It has been my observation that in every 

14 one of those states it has been far easier in a referendum 

15 for those who opposed a change to carry the election than 

16 for those who supported the change. For that reason, I 

17 think this idea of a referendum that the city officials 

18 seem to favor is really a two-edged sword that will cut 

19 both ways. It might very well prevent Baltimore County 

20 from taking Bethlehem Steel, city taking Bethlehem Steel 

21 from Baltimore County, but it also might prevent Baltimore 



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1 City from accomplishing an objective in the future that 

2 would be of importance to us. 

3 It always makes me think of the statement of 

4 the old, old man talking to a young. fellow. The young 

5 man said to the old gentleman, how long have you lived 

6 here? He said all my life. I guess you have seen a lot 

7 of change in your lifetime. Re said, yes, and I have 

8 been agin every damned one of them. 

9 We are living in a time of change and we 

10 must create the proper vehicle by which these changes 

11 can be accomplished or we will be in the same box 50 

12 years from now as we are today. 

13 MRS. HOFFMAN: The proposal to impose 

14 difficulties of referendum v; it h respect to changes in 

15 boundaries has to be viewed in context with the 

16 parallel proposal that it would be easy for the General 

by 

17 Assembly/its action to create regional governments. 

18 If it is hard to change political boundaries, one is 

19 saying by the same token it would be hard to make those 

20 minor adjustments that will still leave the basic 

21 governmental problem unresolved because I think we feel 



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1 generally that the metropolitan problem is one that 

2 cannot be adequately solved by each of our separate 

3 governments cooperating even with good will, 

4 If, however, the difficulty of making these 

5 minor adjustments and these particular little problems 

6 is accompanied by facilitating creation of regional 

7 government whose very creation would be accompanied by 

8 withdrawal of powers from the local governments that 

9 comprise that region, it seems to me we are more in the 

10 j way of being effective in solving the problem of tomorrow 

11 It was within that context that I think Mr. D'Alesandro's 

12 proposal needs to be discussed and one reason why I 

13 think it has to be looked at as a system and not just 

14 as a series of independent recommendations. 

15 MRo SONDHEIM: Dr. Gulick suggested that 

16 Dr . Cumming might want to say something more about 

17 Toronto's experience with annexation because this is 

18 at the heart, as I understand it, of this problem. I 

19 think it is pertinent to the questions that have been 

20 raised. 

21 DR. CUMMING: The question has often been 



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raised and many people have come to metropolitan Toronto, 
especially those interested in trying to find out how 
we happened to get away with it, how we happened to 
create it. This goes back a good many years. I think it 
is about 35 years ago that the Province of Ontario, 
which had been plagued with this very question of 
machinery or methods by which you change municipal boundar 
by which you create municipalities or dissolve them or 
change their boundaries or amalgamate them or annexations, 
these have become so difficult and so numerous that the 
province in its wisdom created an administrative tribunal 
which was called, and still exists, the Ontario Municipal 
Board. 

One of the very first duties given to our 
board was to hear and adjudicate upon applications for 
municipal boundary changes. That board was the board, 
therefore, which in the course of its statutory obliga- 
tion some thirty years later in 1950 had to hear and 
dispose of the application of the City of Toronto for the 
biggest annexation, if you want to call it annexation, 
they called it amalgamation, that the board had ever baon 



ies 



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1 faced with. This happened to be the time I became 

2 Chairman of the Board. 

3 That administrative tribunal originally was 

4 enabled only to make recommendations to the Legislature. 

5 The annexations which it decided upon had to be ratified 

6 by special act of the Legislature. That whole method 
V of dealing with annexation problems so called was itself 

8 in the process of evolution. It was changed from time 

9 to time and finally only ten or twelve years ago the 
i 

10 j need for legislative ratification was completely eliminated 

H In substitution for it was given the right of the minority 

12 protesting against annexation if 10 per cent of the 

13 resident ratepayers in the area being annexed or 

14 amalgamated would file petition of objection with the 

15 provincial government, the provincial government 

16 was given a very interesting, but limited, power to give 
IV effect to that objection but only by way of directing a 

18 new hearing before the same board but differently consti- 

19 tuted. The Municipal Board in Ontario is now composed of 

20 a dozen members. When I was first Chairman of it in 
1953, it only had five members. This is still one of 



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the most important functions of the Board. During the 

ten-year period I was Chairman of the Board, I would 

guess that we handled, dealt with, disposed of 40 or 50 

annexations a year. Some were very large. It includes 

I power to order annexation of a larger or smaller area 

C than the petition asked for. There are numerous 

secondary powers as to setting up the local government, 

merging of the two administrations, et cetera. It has 

been objected that the Legislature of Ontario had, 

therefore, delegated to the appointive body things which 
ij 

11 were its own responsibility. The legalistic and 

12 constitutionally minded people were always complaining 

13 about that. But actually the Legislature has done no 

14 such thing. 

15 First the members of the Board hold office 

16 only during the pleasure of the Legislature 

17 do not have a lifetime job. Secondly on matters of 
- law and jurisdiction, there is and only on those 
" matters is there appeal to the Courts of the province 

so that if the Board exceeds its jurisdiction or exceeds 
powers given to it in the legislation creating the board, 



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1 there is direct appeal to the people of Ontario. 

2 In other matters, not matters of law but 

3 matters of policy such as whether this annexation should 

4 have been ordered or not, no court is going to be in a 

5 better position than the Board to determine that 

6 question. But the government elected by the people of 

7 Ontario can interfere with the decision of the Board but 

8 the government has said all right, 10 per cent of you 

9 people, if you are objecting, can bring the whole matter 

10 to us and we will decide whether to confirm the decision 

11 of the Board or to send it back for another hearing 

12 before a different membership of the board. But the 

13 interesting thing is that the decision made on that 

14 second hearing is unappealable. 

15 Thishas worked out, I would say, I don't 

16 want to appear to boast, it hasn't arrived overnight, 

17 this is a long evolution of this legislation, the very 

18 first thing that was eliminated was any statutory provision 
li for referendum either on the part of the annexing 
c ? municipality or on the part of the people in the area 

being annexed. 



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1 Unfortunately, I would have to agree that the 

2 people who are most concerned about annexations and 

3 amalgamations are certainly going to act as human beings, 
* they are not going to approve an annexation which they 

5 think is going to cost them some money. Most of the 

6 establishment in the existing municipalities will be 

7 against any change at all. Especially if they are 

8 going to lose some favorable assessments such as the 

9 steel works you mentioned. Of course, the municipality 
1° | where that steel works is located will object. But the 
" Board ha s in one way or another, somewhat haltingly, I 
** am not saying the Board is perfect, they are just human 

13 beings, they have acted really as a court in such matters 

14 i suggest very strongly these are matters which an 

15 administrative tribunal is almost essential in almost 

16 any state and I believe most states do have some sort of 

17 system of this kind where these decisions are removed 

18 from the state political arena and transferred to an 

19 administrative tribunal. 
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MR. SONDHEIM: All right, Mr. D'Alesandro. 

MR. D'ALESANDRO: Mr. Cummins, the only question 
I wanted to ask is how does any locale initiate the question 
of annexation? Does it come from the locale or does it 
come from your Board? 

DR. CUMMING: No, this initiation, the application 
the Board obtains jurisdiction only when the local municipal- 
ity, a council of a local municipality passes a bylaw 
authorizing an application to the Board and describing the 
area to be annexed, and any municipality can ask to have 
itself annexed to another municipality, and this has happened 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Azrael. 

MR. AZRAEL: It seems to me this question of 
exchanges of boundaries are to be considered in connection 
with the question of regions, regional governments. 

Now, of course, it is possible that some political 
units would want to -- would talk about joining by way of 
annexation in order to reduce administrative costs alone. 
I don't think this is too realistic or too important. 
Generally, it would be to perform their functions more 
efficiently. Now, let's see if -- assume that there is a 



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1 region in which all of the units would pass at a referendum 
an annexation move, it would seem to me that that kind of 

■ region would have' very little difficulty meeting most of 
its problems by regional activity. 

5 Now, so when would annexation be necessary, be 

talked about? Generally, I would say when a region fails 
to meet its problems by regional activity, and if it fails 
to meet its problems, and those problems are so acute that 

: annexation becomes an issue, then it is obvious that a 
referendum would not affect annexation and that these 
] - problems would remain, and that region would remain from 

12 the standpoint of the efficiency of its government, of 

13 meeting its problems, pretty much as things are noWj and 

14 so I wonder what, how can you -- I mean we must assume 

15 that if we are going to have a three-way referendum, or 

16 even a two-way referendum, we are not going to change 

17 boundaries. I think that's realistic too, and so -- and, 

18 yes, this may be the purpose of the referendum, Janet says. 

19 I don't see how you can talk realistically about 

20 changes of boundaries and insist on the free referenda, and 

21 I don't see how you can -- when annexation would be a real 



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issue unless that area has failed to meet its problems 
by -- in the other way, the regional way. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Benton. 

MR. BENTON: I may have not made myself clear 
and I think perhaps the discussion should be broken down 
into two separate issues. 

If the proposal involves the consolidation of 
two complete political units of government, then we would 
not suggest that such issue be subject to referenda. It 
is only in those instances where the combination did not 
take in a complete political unit that we felt, for illustra 
tions that have been made, that such issue be subjected to 
a referendum. 

Now, from the remarks that ensued, some may have 
interpreted my position as being that referendum should be 
required in all circumstances. This is not the case. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Yes, Mr. Hanson. 

MR. HANSON: I want to speak on the referendum 
question, but I would like to speak on it in the context 
of what it seems to me the State Constitution which is to 
be written ought to be trying to do. 



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1 I think that the proposal of the Commission, the 

draft that indicates that it would be a flexible document 
is extremely well advised. 

4 It seems to me there ought to be as much range 

as possible for the State Legislature to devise governmental 

g arrangements for its metropolitan areas, and it ought not 

7 to be precluded from establishing regional governments. 

8 The way in which I think it is useful to approach 

9 this particular problem may add a dimension to the general 

10 problem solving approach- that has been discussed thus far 

11 this morning and this afternoon. 

12 Problem solving, I think, and solving regional 

13 problems is only one aspect of urban and local organization 

14 I in a State. One of ihe overriding aspects of urban organi- 

15 zation should be, I think, the provision of local democratic 
15 government. 

17 Now, what does local democratic government mean 

18 in a metropolitan society? One of the things it means, of 

19 course, is participation, which was touched upon earlier. 

20 One of the things it also means is meaningful participation 

21 in that the government- that you participate in must have 



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jurisdiction of such scope that it can grapple with the 
problems that motivate the participation, and it must 
have the powers necessary to meet those problems. Therefore 
this again implies a very high degree of flexibility. 

There is a need then that representative systems 
establish a means for resolving conflict , and, most of all. 
a democratic mold, a means of holding the government 
accountable for what it has done. 

Now, that is said, and I was trying to remember 
your admonition against not speaking too long, but I won't 
be here tomorrow so I will take tomorrow's time now. 

I am also in the unique position, I think, of 
being the only person here whose views on metropolitan 
government have been rejected at the polls. So you can 
take what I say with some grain of salt. 

From the discussion I have heard, there are 
certain areas of agreement here. One is that everyone 
who has spoken on the subject at least is agreed that 
there needs to be authority in the Constitution for counties 
and other local units to enter into joint exercise of 
powers by agreements. Another area of agreement, it seems 



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1 that Dillon's rules should be reversed and rather than 
having jurisdictions of limited power they should have 
universal powers except as precluded by State law. 

Now, what are the problems then to be solved 
c by the structure that is being proposed? It seems to me 
that there are the County problems. We have talked very 
little, except in the bit of discussion about municipalities', 
about sub-county problems and in counties the size of 
: Baltimore County, and Prince Georges, and Montgomery 

County, there is a need for at least providing the authority 
3 ■ and I think the draft allows that authority, for allowing 

12 Counties to break themselves down into smaller units for 

13 the purposes of participation and political identification 

14 and communication, either through the representative system 

15 or through delegations of powers to urban and rural district 

16 which will be within these very, very large counties. 

17 There is a need then also for intercounty, or 

18 metropolitan, or regional organization in the Washington 
area, a need for enough flexibility in the Constitution 
to permit joint exercise of powers and entry into regional 

- - governmental arrangements either through intergovernmental 



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agreement or through interstate compact, and there is 
need increasingly with the development of the corridor 
for intermetropolitan institutions, or at least for the 
future between the Baltimore metropolitan area and the 
Washington metropolitan area. 

We can see then two or three corollary problems 
developing out of this. One is to provide enough flexibility 
in the Constitution for the government of the new towns 
which are beginning to be built in Maryland, three already 
in the process of establishment, and the changing of 
boundaries both of these new towns and of the old communitie 
to make them more appropriate to the new tasks that they 
will have to undertake, all of this relating then to the 
social problems, and if I can speak in the toughest terms 
here, what about bussing children, and schools, what about 
taxes, like pay roll taxes that central cities are for 
and suburbs are against, and what about housing which 
central cities are for and suburbs are against, and what 
about race relations? These are the kind of problems that 
are going to have to be solved, the kind of conflicts that 
are going to have to be resolved in the metropolitan 



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1 institutions that we create. 

2 Now, to return to the point of flexibility and 
democracy, if we are going to have enough flexibility in 

4 the Constitution to create regional governments, to provide 
. for sub-county participation, and governments to provide 
6 for interstate cooperation and intermetropolitan arrange- 
„ ments, it seems to me that, echoing Dr. Gulick's remarks 
o this morning, this State must accept the responsibility for 
q providing these kind of institutional arrangements. 

It is also important I think to add a caveat 
that the Constitution should be written in a sufficiently 
12 strong way that to protect the idea of democractic govern 
I* ment should avoid excessive creation of special purpose 
24 districts, and the splintering off of one function after 
•ic another from a degree of persuasive popular control. 

16 Now, why shouldn't these things be subject to 

17 referendum? It seems to me that there are two or three 
1Q basic problems involved in the referendum. One is that 
19 when we get to the question of boundary changes, the 

submission of the boundary changes to referenda virtually 
2i precludes any change of significance unless you are 



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consolidating a very large number of areas because now 
you get Negroes who are beginning to get political power 
in the city against dilution of their power by adding 
territory outside and suburbanites who are quite comfortable 
in their split level homes against allowing the Negroes to 
participate in their nice neat political arrangement. There 
is also the problem, I think Dr. Cumming has spoken to quite 
appropriately, of the adequacy of administrative procedures 
for handling these problems, and, finally, there are the 
problems of very low levels of -- the practical problem 
of very low level of citizen participation in these kind 
of referenda, their being much subject to the massing of 
funds for the purpose of influencing them; and, finally, 
most importantly, the importance of thinking of our system 
of local government as a system. 

I think one of the things that has greatly impaired 
Maryland is that we do not have a system of government in 
the State but rather a group of governments, and we need 
very much, it seems to me, to look at significant boundary 
changes and significant regional political organizations 
as part of a State-wide system because it is going to be 



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1 an intergovernmental system and in such case then it seems 

2 to me the State Legislature elected now, I add with some 

3 degree of pride, by the people of the State, can make that 

4 decision in as adequate a way as it can be made through 

5 the referendum process. 

6 Now, having said these non-controversial things, 

7 I will sit down. 

8 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, Mr. Hanson. I am 

9 very sorry you are not coming back tomorrow. 

10 MR. SONDHEIM: Yes, sir, Dr. Jones. 

11 DR. JONES: I don't know whether you want people 

12 from the outside to interject themselves into this discus- 

13 sion? 

14 MR. SONDHEIM: I should say we do. 

15 DR. JONES: I don't under any circumstances 

16 want to get involved in a domestic quarrel. 

17 DR. KRAUSHAAR: That's why you are here, sir. 

18 DR. JONES: And have people turn on me, but I 

19 would like to suggest that all of the history of the last 

20 fifty to sixty-five years has indicated that if we are 

21 going to split the radical proposals for modifying local 



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1 government system to referendum they will be defeated, 

2 particularly if we have complicated requirements of refer- 

3 endum as to the County where ten per cent of the people 

4 can veto a proposal for changing the County government 

5 because of the very complicated referendum requirements. 

6 It is not that I have suddenly given up my faith 

7 in the people, or that I distrust myself as one of the 

8 people to vote right on a referendum, but this is just 

9 not the way governmental changes are being made. 

10 During all the sixty years in which referenda 

11 have been defeated, local government has changed and 

12 certainly the governments of metropolitan areas has changed 

13 as State and local governments, and Federal agencies and 

14 so on have gotten involved in, through the setting up of 

15 special districts and in other ways, in governing metropolit 

16 areas. 

17 Now, so I think this is one of the facts of life, 

18 if you want some kind of — if you want a certain kind of 

19 metropolitan government then you have got to approach it, 

20 it seems to me, in some other way than putting it to referen 

21 dum. 



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The question as to whether you will or not, of 
course, depends on what you want to do in your own home, 
that is to say Maryland. That is something I won't talk 
about, but even if you think you would rather not have 
regional government unless you do put it to referendum, 
you are going to get it anyway because this is what has 
been happening. 

Now, we are getting metropolitan government 
principally in the form of special districts and authorities 
of one kind or another. So I would like to say in the 
future, and in the very near future, we will in every 
metropolitan in the United States, unless local and State 
action is taken to shape the future, we are going to get 
a kind of metropolitan government that isn't called that 
because the Federal Government is now requiring planning 
review, that is to say review by a regional planning agency 
of the most important kinds of applications that go to the 
Federal Government for grants in aid or for loans, hospital 
basic sewer and water facilities, open space in parks, 
highways', mass transit and others, and I am sure that in 
the next decade some of these social kind of grants handled 



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by the Health, Education and Welfare will also be subjected 
to the same kind of review. 

Now, it is argued that this is not metropolitan 
government, this is a group of planners, and by definition 
planning isn't government. Well, I want to skip that for 
the moment, but in the mind of somebody who is going to 
make the decision of how you want your metropolitan area 
to develop as the result of applying to the Federal Govern- 
ment or to the State Government for money to carry out this 
project or that project, you are in fact determining the 
polity of the area, and if there isn't an open visible 
political process for the region that makes this decision, 
then a so-called regional planning agency will be making 
it in the guise of technical decisions. 

Now, if this is what we want, all right, but then 
that is metropolitan government. 

MR. SONDHHIM: May I say one thing, could I just 
interject one thing for President Kraushaar and myself, 
your first statement worried us. If any of the others 
of your seven, six colleagues share it, and that is we 
certainly want you to participate in every way. We can 



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always get these people together, but we can't get you. 

MR. MARBURY: May I ask a question? I don't want 
to speak twice on the same subject. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Oh, of course. 

MR. MARBURY: I just want to ask a question. It 
seems to me that we may possibly avoid this hot political 
potato because we are off on talking about boundaries, 
whereas as I understand it, the setting up of regional 
governments does not necessarily involve the changing of 
any boundaries of any County or of any municipality at all. 

The important thing is that the power should 
exist in the Legislature to anticipate the Federal Governmer 
and set up such regional agencies as may be necessary. 

Now, I ask Mr. Eney this question, is the 
boundary change of any real importance? 

MR. ENEY: I think I would have to answer that 
by saying no, and then also pointing out what is perhaps 
another compromise in the Commission's recommendations, 
and which I am sure Mr. Marbury has observed because it is 
implicit in his question. 

Now, we propose to authorize the Legislature, to 



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empower the Legislature to create regions and regional 
governments consisting of entire Counties, or parts of 
Counties, or parts of several Counties. 

Now, if you will reflect a moment, it is quite 
obvious that you could accomplish almost exactly the same 
purpose by simply having the Legislature exercise its power 
to alter County boundaries. 

To oversimplify it, you could create a Baltimore 
metropolitan region by abolishing Ealtimore County and 
Anne Arundel County and combining them all with Ealtimore 
City into Ealtimore Metro. 

Therefore, in providing in the Constitution that 
the Legislature has the power to change County boundaries 
we do this perhaps a little bit with the tongue in cheek 
attitude that the Legislature isn't apt to change boundaries 
because of the traditions and the oppositions and the sort 
of thing that, which the previous speakers have spoken 
about. 

There is however one other reason and that is 
that you may want to create a metropolitan region having 
less than complete governmental powers, maybe a whole lot 



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1 less or maybe just a little less, but you may want to 

2 create a Baltimore metropolitan region having power to 
- operate a rapid transit, plus sewers, plus water supply, 
4 plus any number of other things, and perhaps with taxing 

powers and borrowing powers, but still less than a complete 

6 government, in which event the existing governments of the 

7 region, the County governments, would still continue to 

q supply the governmental services not supplied by the region. 
9 Therefore, to again answer Mr. Marbury's question, 

10 it is not necessary to change the boundaries of Counties in 

11 order to create a region or a regional government. 

12 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Yes, Judge Northrop. 

13 j JUDGE NORTHROP: I might say that even now, of 

14 course, you have legislative acts which do this. Montgomery 

15 County has had it for years where the Park and Planning 

15 Commission have joined between Prince George and Montgomery, 

17 gradually embracing part of each County. Now I think the 

18 Park and Planning Commission embraces all of Montgomery 

19 County where at one time it embraced only a part, and in 

20 the regional planning bill you set up districts now, so 

21 what you are talking about already exists to a great degree 



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and, of course, in the Washington area with the mass 
transit compact which was necessary by virtue of the 
fact that you have the District of Columbia and Virginia 
in the thing, it had to be passed by the Legislature. 
So many of the things that you. are talking about already 
exist, and the power exists in the Legislature to do it, 
but I am afraid when you pointed out the degree that is 
possibly pointed out in the way the draft of this Constitution 
is drawn at the moment, that it creates a situation where 
maybe it might kill the whole Constitution. 

Mr. Hanson has just pointed out what happened to 
him in Montgomery County in reference to his advocacy of 
so-called regional government which actually existed at the 
time he was talking about it in the County, and yet many 
people weren't aware of it, but they are afraid of what 
you are calling it. 

Now, Lou Azrael was talking before lunch with 
some of us, and he was talking about how do you sell this 
package. Well, perhaps one way you sell it, after it is 
drafted and then presented to the convention, and the 
convention passes on it, that you are talking about something 



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1 that already exists. 

2 The only thing it seems to me to be a situation 

3 in reference to how it may become implemented is that it 

4 becomes implemented, it seems to me, for the very reason 

5 that you take a look in the Baltimore story of the Toronto 

6 situation, and almost every one of the things that Toronto 

7 has accomplished to date is in the area of which Mr. Norton, 

8 or Dr. Norton talked about, of space and that sort of 

9 thing, and not economic social things, and it seems to 

10 me that economic social things follow naturally in the 

11 train of these things that are important to everyone and 

12 which they want to do at this moment, like transit, sewers, 

13 water polution and all that sort of thing, planning, 

14 regional planning. There are a number of regional planning 

15 areas set up in Maryland under the new act and if they can 

16 be toned to that and directed to that, of something that 

17 already exists almost for special reasons, then it seems to 

18 me that you won't have any trouble with it at all. I think 

19 you are talking about something that you already have and 

20 you don't know you have got it. 

21 MR. D'ALESANDRO: Does the Legislature have the 



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power now without local referendum to change the boundary 
of any County? 

JUDGE NORTHROP: Oh, no, not now, no, not now, 
and you take the municipal act creating the municipal 
governments, there, of course, there was a referendum if 
they wanted municipal governments changed, or annexations, 
and their method of self -- of the municipality doing that, 
but, no, it doesn't have that power, but I thought we were 
moving away from the boundary question to a creation of 
regional government which wouldn't change. In Mr. Eney's 
original presentation it indicates that he has no contem- 
plation of changing the present municipal forms or County 
governments that might exist in a regional area that is 
established, just like Toronto has it. 

MR. D'ALESANDRO: I think that is the question, 
V/e are talking about two different problems, one about the 
establishment of a regional type government, and the second 
is the specific recommendation that the Legislature have 
the power without referendum to change County boundaries. 

JUDGE NORTHROP: But the regional type of 
government I don't think contemplates a change in certain 



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administrative functions which can be carried on at 
strictly local level, which are extremely desirable. 

MR. D'ALESANDRO: I find no fault with what you 
say there but what about that specific recommendation? 

MR. ENEY: Could I answer that, Mr. Moderator? 

MR. SONDHEIM: Yes, Mr. Eney. 

MR. ENEY: The answer is both yes and no. Under 
the present Constitution the Legislature can create new 
Counties by combining Counties, or by combining parts of 
existing Counties only with the consent by referendum of 
a majority of the voters in the area to comprise the new 
County, but the Legislature can today under the present 
Constitution, and it has had this power for nearly a 
hundred years, can change an area in one County to another 
County with a referendum only of the people in the area 
affected. So on the illustrations given, the Legislature 
could move Sparrows Point into Ealtimore City with the 
referendum approval of the area of the Sparrows Point 
voters, or the Legislature could today move Canton cut 
of Ealtimore City and into Anne Arundel County with the 
consent only of the voters in Canton. 



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MR. D'ALESANDRO: Don't spread that around, Mr. 



Eney. 



MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. D'Alesandro might say there 
are some wild rumors coming out of this meeting. 

MR. ENEY: Might I while I have the floor take 
another moment to say this, I am afraid I have an irrepress^ 
ible impulse to get in the fray, but I am so anxious to 
have comments on this. I think it was Mr. D'Alesandro 
who touched on this point which is one that concerns us 
very much and we would like to have comment. 

If the Legislature should exercise the power it 
now has and would have under the new Constitution to take 
pieces out of one County and put it into another, it could 
very radically affect the fiscal responsibility of that 
political sub-division. One would answer it perhaps that 
you would assume the Legislature would be intelligent and 
responsible and wouldn't do this, but it raises a host of 
other problems as, for instance, compensation to the 
deprived County for public works that it may have expended, 
large sums for Baltimore City's new water supply to the 
Susquehanna River; would it receive compensation, the 



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1 existing areas? This poses a real and very critical fiscal 

2 problem which I am frank to say we have not at all attempted 

3 to solve. 

4 JUDGE NORTHROP: Let me answer that by saying 

5 they took slot machines away from the so-called Southern 

6 Maryland Counties and some way they have got to work out 

7 a taxing system to restore their revenue. 

8 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Scull. 

9 MR. SCULL: My name is Scull, I am a member of 

10 the Montgomery County Council and, of course, I can only 

11 speak as one member of the Council. 

12 It seems to me in listening to the discussion 

13 today there really are two problems of course that we are 

14 discussing. One, how, and this is from the latter part 

15 of the day, we spent our time in trying to decide, perhaps, 

16 how can we best design the new institutions of government 

17 to govern our newly evolving urban suburbanites; and the 

18 other question that we started on this morning was how can 

19 we design a Constitution broad enough, giving us a broad 

20 enough grant, that we can later sit down and design those 

21 institutions, and I just for one person, if I were a 



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delegate to our Constitutional Convention in September, 
I really feel as though I would be perfectly willing to 
vote for a Constitution that Mr. Eney would draw, and I 
think the important thing is to draw the Constitution with 
the broadest possible grant of power, and not between now 
and September try to confuse the voters, the people, or 
ourselves with attempting to finalize the design either 
of the Baltimore metropolitan area or the Washington 
metropolitan area by specific inclusion in our Constitution 
of suggested shapes of any such design for a city that we 
clearly are not yet prepared to design the governmental 
institutions for. 

And then with respect to the latter problems 
that we have been discussing, in other words, the design 
of the new governmental institutions for our new urban 
suburbanites, and it seems to me it is, of course, 
Baltimore and Washington are only one of many of our big 
new urban, suburban cities that all seem to have almost 
the same characteristic which is a round hard core old 
city containing most of the poverty of the area and perhaps 
most of the Negroes that have moved in, and the white 



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1 doughnut shaped circular city which is — represents the 

2 suburbs, and in our area our people seem to be able to 

3 agree that they could yield enough sovereignty to a 

4 Transit Commission to solve the transit problem and yield 

5 taxing authority to whatever is necessary to do that because 

6 they want this transit system; that the lurking fear that 

7 is clear in this discussion and most of the things I have 

g read about the problem really is when you are talking about 
9 boundary changes you are talking about referenda. Nobody 

10 will vote for these things, therefore, they shouldn't have 

11 the right to vote, and the reason to me obviously that they 

12 are not going to vote for them is they move out of the city 

13 to avoid the financial responsibilities for the hard core 

14 poverty problems so it is really not until you answer that 

15 question, how are you going to design regional urban, 

16 suburban government, until somebody decides who is going 
to pay for the costs of poverty in the hard core, and these 

: are national problems; all of our cities have had this 

huge influx of Negro citizens from the South and the hell 
that they have lived in in the South, they have moved 
into our suburban cities, they are a large part of this 



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hard core problem which in the end in my judgment is going 
to have to be resolved with Federal money, and somebody 
is going to have to make that clear that the big check 
for rebuilding the hard core housing problems, the major 
welfare problems, is a national responsibility; it is all 
of our problem. It is going largely to be Federal money, 
and then I don't think you are going to have any problem 
to get the people to vote for metropolitan governments. 

If there was no poverty in Baltimore today you 
wouldn't have much problem about how you can fit Anne 
Arundel County and Baltimore County into a super government 
package. They are worried about who is going to pay these 
trillion dollar costs for the nation as a whole. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, Mr. Scull. They were 
very worth-while remarks. Mr. Horsky. 

MR. HORSKY: Let me bring it down from the 
general to the very particulars and sort of reemphasize 
something I said this morning. 

I didn't have a chance before I spoke this 
morning to see the draft of Mr. Eney's proposed Article 11, 
and it does seem to me ■ that at least it raises one question, 



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Mr. Eney, that you might address yourself to. 

There is clearly granted authority for the 
Counties to join together to do things jointly, it is 
specific in Article C on Page 2. 

I am not sure there is implicit in that, and if 
there isn't, perhaps it ought to be made explicit, that 
speaking from the point of view of the Washington metropoli- 
tan areas, the Counties, particularly Montgomery and Prince 
Georges, should have the power to enter into arrangements 
with their fellow Counties or the District of Columbia 
without having to go get a special legislative permission 



to do so. 



MR. ENEY: May I comment? 



DR. KRAUSHAAR: Yes. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I thought they could. 

MR. ENEY: In a separate section of the proposed 
Constitution there will be provisions for both intra- 
governmental cooperation and intergovernmental cooperation. 

The provisions for intragovernmental cooperation 
are explicit. 

The provisions for intergovernmental cooperation 



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1 started off as being purely negative, saying nothing in 

2 the Constitution shall be deemed to prevent it. It has 

3 turned about now so that it is no longer explicit in that 

4 it confers direct power. It is explicit to the extent 

5 that it says, God bless this undertaking, but without 

6 spelling out the specifics of it. 

7 MR. HORSKY: I think that probably is adequate, 

8 but I have in mind things like common efforts to fight 

9 water polution, air polution, water supply, solid waste 

10 disposal, police cooperation, fire cooperation, all of 

11 which are essential if Washington is going to be a city, 

12 and it ought not to be suggested by the Constitution that 

13 these are anything other than desirable and wholly admirable 

14 cooperative efforts, if they can be achieved. 

15 MR. ENEY: That is exactly in the Constitution, 

16 and on the intragovernmental stage itself, the power is 
explicitly there, it's expressly there. In the inter- 

:• governmental stage we are mindful of the fact that this 

!{■ might require approval of the United States Congress and 

: '■■_■ a compact, and we therefore do not say the Counties have 

21 the power of compact. This is a matter where they may have 



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to get the consent of the Legislature. I am talking about 
intergovernmental County cooperation. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Bebout has a comment. 

DR. BEBOUT: Well, I have a question. I wonder 
if I heard it right, that it may be true that Section 11.02 
of your draft could be enacted now by the Maryland Legislate 
as a statute? 

MR. SONDHEIM: As a what? 

DR. BEBOUT: As a statute. Is this correct or 



not? 

MR. ENEY: Dr. Bebout, when you say 11.02 of 
my draft, I would have to ask you for the date. 

DR. BEBOUT: November 25th. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I think, Mr. Eney, that Dr. Bebout 
has the one that says Preliminary Revised Draft, November 
25th and starts at the beginning of Page 2 on regional 
governments. 

DR. BEBOUT: That's right. 

MR. BROOKS: The answer is probably no to the 
question because you are talking on the terms of regional 
government and establishment of government. 



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I It is the belief of the research staff that it 
: would require constitutional provision, it would remove 

any thought restrictions on the creation empowering the 

: government, although the Legislature could establish such 

5 provisions there would be no source of power at the present 

6 time because the State has an express powers act to give 

7 such powers to the County and to municipalities, and with- 

8 out any particular provision in the Constitution, without 

9 an amendment, there would be no source of power for such 
10 regional governments. 

II DR. JONES: May I ask a question there? 

12 MR. SONDHEIM: Certainly, Dr. Jones. 

13 DR. JONES: But the Legislature does have the 

14 power to create a special district or a special authority? 

15 MR. ER00KS: That's right. 

16 DR. JONES: Yes. Well now, it does not have the 

17 power to — and this special district might embrace several 

18 Counties or parts of several Counties? 

19 MR. ERCOXS: It would have no power to make these 

20 representative governments. It could establish a regional 

21 authority to accomplish very much the same result but would 



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be a different kind of structure. 

DR. JONES: It couldn't provide for the election 
of the governing board? 

MR. BROOKS: That's right. 

DR. JONES: Well, I was going to ask if it does 
have the authority to set up a single purpose district or 
authority, does it have the power to set up a multi purpose 
district or authority with taxing power and — 

MR. BROOKS: We think so. 

DR. JONES: But you still think that it could 
not — 

MR. BROOKS: Let me mention the basis primarily 
for this, and that is that the Courts in Maryland have 
determined, for instance the General Assembly cannot refer 
questions to referendum and the State does not as a matter 
of fact create elective offices by legislative action 
because it has been determined this is a transfer of 
legislative responsibility. 

DR. JONES: Yes. 

MR. BROOKS: Enough so that there is a cloud 
over whether or not any kind of representative government 



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can be created by the General Assembly without constitutional 
authority. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: The time has come, I think, in 
the afternoon when perhaps a brief recess would be welcomed 
for coffee and conversation which will be available in the 
lounge just beyond us, so suppose we take a ten minute 
recess. 

(At this point a ten minute recess was taken.) 

MR. SONDHEIM: Ladies and gentlemen, I think one 
of the great shames is that we don't have about thirty 
stenographers here because I know that a great deal of 
the discussion takes place in the coffee breaks and at 
lunchtime. It could be very interesting if we could have 
one standing by each of them. We might be more useful 
to Mr. Eney and his Commission and the convention to come., 
but we can't do that. 

However, in intermission I learned that Mr. 
Goldstein, the Comptroller of the State of Maryland, had 
a comment that he would like to make about the matters we 
were discussing before the break. We want to, then to move 
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1 like to hear from Mr. Goldstein. 

2 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Thank you, Mr. Moderator. I 

3 am Louis Goldstein, Comptroller of Maryland. 

4 I appreciate the opportunity of being here and 

5 thank you for the invitation, Doctor. 

6 I listened with great interest to the discussion 

7 with reference to regional governments and changing County 

8 boundary lines and all that- sort of thing. If you read 

9 Article 13 of the present Constitution, it has only been 

10 amended once; it was amended in 19^7 and I was in the 

11 Legislature when it was amended in order to stop Baltimore 

12 City from annexing a portion of Baltimore County. 

13 Now, having had sixteen years of experience in 

14 the Maryland Legislature and knowing something about the 

15 make-up of the legislative body, I don't believe any 

16 Legislature will ever annex or take a part of Ealtimore 

17 City, for example, talking about the Canton area where you 

18 have the great industrial complexes, and annex it to 

19 Baltimore County, or Ealtimore City would not take Sparrows 

20 Point which has one-half of the tax base of that great 

21 County, Baltimore County, and interfere with it, because 



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it would certainly interfere with the financial structure 

: of that division of government, namely their bond structure, 
and schools and all of those things. 

4 I feel in any Constitution we adopt come 1967 

5 in this State, it should provide for what happens in the 

6 twenty-first century. After all, we only have thirty-five 

7 more years in this century. 

8 We know when this Constitution of 1867 was 

9 adopted in Maryland there was less than 700,000 people 

10 in Maryland, the budget was approximately a million dollars, 

11 and eighty per cent of the people lived in the rural areas, 

12 only twenty per cent lived around Ealtimore City, and 

13 Annapolis, and the urban areas that we know them as today. 

14 Now, we had an example of what can happen in this 

15 great eastern seaboard when before last Thanksgiving we 

16 had a smog that covered an area from New England all the 

17 way down to Washington. As a result of that smog you would 

18 be amazed how many people living in the suburbs around 

19 Montgomery County and Prince Georges are now looking to the 

20 beautiful regions of Southern Maryland where we had 
delightful living during that time. We have clean water 



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and clean air and -- 

MR. D'ALESANDRO: Louie, I don't think we should 
have any promotions — 

MR. SONDHEIM: I have to support Mr. D'Alesandro 
that we should not talk about any politics except regional 
politics. 

MR. GOLDSTEIN: It is not politics because I 
speak from experience. I have had the good fortune of 
having been born in the rural area of Calvert County, 
having lived in the, over in the ghetto in East Baltimore 
as a young boy, and living in the silk stocking district 
when I went to law school and was a janitor in a house 
over there, and have gone back to Southern Maryland, and 
lived in the State of Virginia, and North Carolina, and 
California, and the Philippine Islands, and various places, 
I have had a few experiences around on both sides of the 
railroad tracks, the good part and the bad part. I speak 





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from experience, sir. 




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One man said he lived in what, five States. I 




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know you lived in the best part of all five States, and I 




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1 Article 11, I believe it is, if my eyesight is all right, 

2 Article 11, and I feel we should have it drafted in a 

3 broad sense so that we can have regional governments; 

4 and I listened to Dr. Cumming and I read this article 

5 in the magazine of Baltimore. 

6 Without disturbing the local aspects of it, I 

7 feel confident the people of Maryland, if you go out and 

8 sell it, and it can be done, and show them what you are 

9 trying to do in order to approach this problem, have the 

10 overall picture, there will be no difficulty in passing 

11 ah amendment like Mr. Eney has drafted as a preliminary 

12 draft. 

13 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you and we know it will 

14 carry Calvert County. 

15 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, sir, we carried it in 1950 

16 when most of the State voted against it. We carried it 

17 again in '66. 

18 MR. SONDHEIM: It is good that W.J.Z. is gone, 

19 Louie, or we would have a number of requests for equal 

20 time. 

21 mr. GOLDSTEIN: I waited for the television to gc 



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1 to make my talk, sir. I purposely did. I will make my 

2 next one without television. 

3 MR. SONDHEIM: There are some laughs and dis- 

4 beliefs , and I can't understand it. 

5 Well, we want to turn now to discuss for a few 

6 minutes the matter — well, perhaps more than a few 

7 minutes -- this basic question of home rule and about 

8 the grant of powers, and I think though perhaps Dr. chute 

9 wanted to talk about this problem of the County as a unit 

10 of government, which will lead us, I think, automatically 

11 into the problem of how powers, home rule powers should be 

12 granted, and who giveth it and who taketh it away. Dr. 

13 Chute. 

14 DR. CHUTE: I wanted to go back to this first 

15 question which we were discussing before the coffee break, 

16 is there a need for a County as a unit of government, and 

17 I think this is important from several points of view. 
IS One is from the standpoint of strategy and tact 
1 ;i of the Constitutional "Convention which is a very important 
: ■■■; thing if you are going to get a Constitution adopted. 
21 we have Counties in this State, and we have been 



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told they have been the primary unit of the government. 
The average size of the Counties, I looked it up several 
years ago, in the Eastern part of the United States, that 
is excluding the enormous Western Counties, it's about 
600 square miles and most of your Counties are smaller 
than that, so they are not excessively large as counties 
go. 

Now, if you don't' need the County as a unit of 
government what would be more appropriate, a township, a 
village, a town, a burrow, a city? 

I would say from my -- it is my impression, 
subject to correction, that over the country as a whole, 
particularly in metropolitan areas, we are moving more and 
more to the County as the unit of government, that is the 
building block in facing these problems, and over the 
country as a whole this is not so, because the County has 
an exceptional record, over a century and a half as being 
a very well governed unit. In many Counties, it hasn't been 
well governed. I make exceptions for some close at home 
that have been very well run. 

The reason it seems to me that the County is 



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] coming more and more to the fore as an important building 
: block in meeting metropolitan area problems is that it- 
tends to be the largest geographically of the units of 
local government, that is it can include more area, it 
t can include more adequate balance of residences, commercial 
activities, rural activities, and industrial activities, 
and probably, in my judgment, it would be preferable to 
build a solution to the metropolitan area problem of 
c government on Counties than it would on smaller jurisdic- 

10 tions. 

11 . Now, there is one drawback here that was faced 

12 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana when they wanted to provide 

13 metropolitan government for that area. They had to amend 

14 their Constitution because it provides that the County 

15 tax rate should be uniform throughout the County, and 

15 having removed this provision from the Constitution they 
17 could then provide a district with a special tax rate for 
: the industrial area where they had tank farms, and the 
] industries, provide fire protection. For example, you 
: could provide a municipal tax rate for the part of the city 
iT" that was developed intensively, and you could provide a 



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rural tax rate for the part of the County that was still 
largely in farms, and you could adjust the boundaries of 
these districts as time progressed, that is as the population 
grew and it went out into the rural areas, that part of the 
rural area could be included in the city. 

Now, this makes it possible to have one unit of 
government with three different tax rates that apply where 
they are appropriate, you see, and it prevents the building 
of an industrial city to get a low industrial rate, and 
another city rate for a more type of a city with commercial, 
and another jurisdiction for a purely rural area, so I 
think this is something to beware of in writing a new 
Constitution. Make it, if you think the County is a good 
unit of government, make it so flexible that it can adjust 
to meet these various requirements. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you. I think if we turned 
to the question of home rule, and I wonder if someone would 
like to start the discussion on addressing himself or her- 
self to the question of how — what kind of powers should 
be granted. 

I wonder while Mr. Eney is busy, maybe Mr. Erooks 



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1 would like to outline briefly what is in this document 

2 and, incidentally, this has been referred to several 

3 times, and during the coffee break some people said they 

4 hadn't seen it. As I understand there are some extra 

5 copies here. This is the preliminary revised draft dated 

6 November 25th of Article 11, and if anyone wants it I 

7 think it would be worth reading tonight if you haven't 

9 seen it. It is quite brief / it is only four pages long, 

9 and I think it might clear some of the misapprehensions, 

10 some of the questions that were raised earlier today. 

11 Do you want to talk for a minute, John, about 

12 the problem of home rule? 

13 MR. BROOKS: By the way, there are additional 

14 copies on the table of not only the preliminary draft but 

15 also of some alternative provisions that have been drawn 

16 up from time to time by either the Commission staff or 

17 members of the Commission to consider as the preliminary 

18 draft was being prepared. 

19 As some of you are aware, perhaps the general 

20 theory of what kind of grant of power, if there is to be a 

21 broad grant of power, is one that has been advocated 



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primarily by Dean Fordham to municipalities, and it is 
being suggested in the draft by the Constitutional 
Convention Commission that in lieu of a broad grant of 
power to municipalities, that the Dean Fordham approach 
be utilized in granting home rule to the Counties, and 
this would be the first application of this principle 
on a County-wide basis. The thought being to capitalize 
upon the fact that Maryland. already has an unusually 
strong County unit level of government, and that this 
would at least give a basis for that complex of regional 
government to the size that the Counties now exist, even 
though some perhaps larger regions might be desirable 
in the future. 

Thus, it was contemplated that the County probably 
should be established as the basic unit of government and 
should have the broadest base of power possible under the 
Constitution; that it would have home rule and that the 
General Assembly would be prohibited from enacting any kind 
of laws that are local in nature other than those that are 
applicable to all Counties, including the City of Baltimore 
alike, with the possible exception of considering a 



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2 classification system, provided that classification 
system is structured so as to maximize the number of 

3 classes that could exist and minimize the number of 

4 members of each of those classes. The recommendation 

5 specifically being that there be no more than five classe 

6 of Counties and no less than three Counties in any one 

7 of the classes, and that only one class be permitted to 

8 exist at any one time, and that rather than enumerate the 

9 powers that the Counties have as it is presently done by 

10 statute, that the Constitution grant to the Counties through 

11 a general grant, all powers that are not specifically 

12 reserved either in the Constitution or by general law 

13 applicable to all of the Counties, or by a particular 
'"14 class under the proposed classification system. 

15 The hope is primarily that the great quantity of 

16 local legislation that is now being considered by the 

17 General Assembly would no longer have to be considered 

18 by the General Assembly and it could then consider from 

19 its own perspective the broader problems facing the State 
: :• and the larger regions of the State and give attention to 
21 these. 



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MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you. Can we have some 
comments on this? 

MR. MARBURY: I have a question to ask. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Marbury. 

MR. MARBURY: The statement that the Legislature 
can only act by general law sounds good, but I recently 
ran into a situation in which the Legislature enacted a 
general law and then by a — the last section of the law 
exempted every County in the State except Washington, and 
Allegany and Baltimore City. 

Is there any way by which that particular dodge 
can be controlled? 

MR. BROOKS: Mr. Chairman, it is designed -- a 

is 

design — rather the recommendation of the Commission/that 

because of that tradition in Maryland where today general 
public laws include any law applicable to two or more 
Counties, and sometimes perhaps even to a single County, 
that there be a prohibition against a general law that 
is not applicable to every County explicitly written into 
the Constitution in such detail -- in fact it is reaffirmed 
in the Commission's draft, so that -- in two or three place: 



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to make sure it is clear that the General Assembly can 
only enact laws applicable alike to all Counties, or to 
all Counties in one of the classes of the classification 
system that might be established. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Marbury. 

MR. MARBURY: That is a real problem. The 
Maryland Port Authority Act exempted Anne Arundel County, 
and I don't think it would have passed if it hadn't exempted 
Anne Arundel County. 

MR. GOLDSTEIN:- Yes, it would. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Some of us missed what you said. 

MR. GOLDSTEIN: You don't have to have it for 
the record. 

MR. MARBURY: He said it would have passed. 

MR. GOLDSTEIN: I said the bill would have passed 
even though we didn't exempt that one County. One of the 
members of the Legislature was a little bit foolish at 
that time. 

MR. SONDHEIM: It is all right for you to give 
your name but not his. 

MR. GOLDSTEIN: I didn't give his name. I didn't 



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say anything. I introduced the bill and I know all about 
it. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Marbury raised the question 
that I think deserves an additional answer. Vernon, would 
you like to comment on that? 

MR. ENEY: Well, I am not sure of the, exactly 
what his question is. 

His comment, as I understood, was that without 
the power in the Legislature to exempt Anne Arundel County 
the Maryland Port Authority bill would have not passed. 

Under the Constitution which we propose that 
would have meant that the Maryland Port Authority bill 
would not have passed, but I can only answer that the -- 
if the Legislature cannot have the power to exempt Counties 
or any group of Counties from a public general law, I 
personally would question that it would be -- it would 
have been so irresponsible as to have refused to pass the 
Maryland Port Authority bill merely because Anne Arundel 
County could not have been exempted. In other words, I 
think we are confronted here with a problem of sort of 
determining which is cause and which is affect. 



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I am inclined to think Anne Arundel County got 

if 

exempted because it could be, and/it could not have been 

under the Constitution, rather than to say the Maryland 
Port Authority bill would not have been passed, I think 
it would have been passed but Anne Arundel County would 
not have been exempted. This is just a matter however of 
judgment and opinion. 

MR. -SONDHEIM: Mrs. Hoffman. 

MRS. HOFFMAN: Janet Hoffman. We are dealing 
here with the question of the powers of the Counties. The 
question of the power of the Legislature with respect to 
the activities which the Legislature reserves for itself 
isn't under discussion. 

I don't know whether there were any particular 
powers to the Counties that were given by the Port Authority 
Act, but it seems to me that the State of Maryland is not 
being barred by this proposal from acting with respect to 
the State Government as it sees fit, provided it isn't 
invading the powers to the Counties. Should the State 
desire to withdraw powers to the County under this provision 
as I read it it would not be barred from doing so, provided 



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it withdrew them generally, and as I see it, the problem 
that Mr. Marbury raised, if it should, it should be a 
practical political one of enactment of the legislation 
and would not have occurred in the type of case he is 
referring to which is a question of the functions of the 
State Government and if it is a practical question with 
respect to what powers were given local governments it 
seems to me then it might readily be a very proper bar 
as to whether the State Legislature should or should not 
exempt particular units of government based upon the 
desires of the local delegation from exercising powers 
as local governments which they don't want other governments 
to have. 

MR. MARBURY: Yes, but isn't the answer to that 
that this confers all power on the local governments and 
then says that the Legislature can only take any power 
away from the local governments by a law which exempts 
no County, which includes the city, so that they have all 
the power, and if you want to take any power away from them 
you have to do it by a law which applies everywhere and it 
seems to me that there have been many laws passed which 



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did not apply absolutely State-wide and which would have 
run into pretty severe difficulties if they hadn't exempted 
some areas? 

MRS. HOFFMAN: Could I respond? 

MR. SONDHEIM: Yes. 

MRS. HOFFMAN: Granted, but if one wanted -- if 
the State wished to withdraw powers from all localities 
in order for the State itself to enter the field, the State, 
it seems to me, would have been able to meet the political 
objection of, in this case, Anne Arundel County, by with- 
drawing from all local governments power over port develop- 
ment and agreeing that when it exercised the power it would 
exercise the power in such a way as to not develop within 
Anne Arundel County. 

It seems to me the political mechanism would 
have been available to the State to meet the problem that 
you cited. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Bebout. 

DR. BEBOUT: I think we are getting into a very 
important legal question which, of course, has never been 
really tested, under the Fordham formula, at least not to 



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my knowledge. 

I have always assumed that in addition to the 
language which you include I think in 11.03(a): A County 
may exercise any power, other than judicial power, or 
perform any function which is not denied to it by this 
Constitution, by its charter, or by law, which in its 
terms and in its effects is applicable to all Counties 
or to all Counties of its class; that you have to read 
in there also, without saying it explicitly: And is not 
inconsistent with any act of the State in the exercise 
of its — of State powers. 

Now, in other words, I do not -- I have never 
assumed that the Fordham formula was creating a sort of 
a full federalization within the State. If it were to do 
so, I certainly would be opposed to it, and if the State 
in its wisdom decides to assume responsibility for the 
development of the port area through a State agency, it 
doesn't seem to me that this is impinging upon County, any 
County power that can be pled against the power of the 
State to' do this, and it is not clear to me even that the 
State couldn't ma.ke use of the County mechanism to assist 



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1 it in this enterprise if it wanted to. 

2 Would anybody care to react to this because I 
;. think it is vital? 

MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Jones. 

5 DR. JONES: A question, just a question here. 

6 As you interpret this, John, aren't you just opening up 

7 to the Courts again the old question and forcing the 

8 Courts to distinguish between the local affairs and State- 

9 wide affairs? 

10 DR. BEBOUT: No, I think not. 

11 DR. KEITH: Forcing the Legislature to make that 

12 decision. 

13 DR. JONES: The Legislature, and then the Court 

14 decides if there is going to be a complex. 

15 DR. KEITH: There is no question that the plenary 

16 power resides in the State under this draft. Incidentally, 

17 Dr. Eebout keeps talking about the Fordharn draft. Actually, 

18 this is much better than Fordharn' s draft because Fordharn' s 

19 draft would empower the localities to exercise only delicabl 
:: powers and that takes you into all kinds of hornet's nests, 
21 and you very wisely say it can exercise any power, and 



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1 that's any power that the Legislature can exercise unless 

r c it is withdrawn by affirmative legislative enactment. 
3 MR. CRAIN: Eennett Crain, Anne Arundel County. 

Before I comment on the general provisions, I would like 

5 to say that as to the Port Authority bill, the Senator 

6 that exempted Anne Arundel County has retired from active 
political life after this recent election. 

Anyway, I work as the County attorney on a day 

9 to day basis with the existing expressed powers act for 

10 chartered Counties, and it is a real problem, and the 

11 expressed powers act drives lawyers crazy, so I am very 

12 glad to see the reverse come about which will give us the 

13 authority and the State can take it away from us, for 

14 example, to enact an income tax law State-wide but without 

15 their invasion into the field, the Counties themselves can 

16 handle their own affairs and we don't have to get into the 

17 legal battles of whether it is within the express powers 

18 or not within the express powers. 

19 The expressed powers act for chartered Counties 

20 now was written substantially in about 1915. It is not 

21 written for modern day activities in a metropolitan area, 



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so that I think the lawyers in chartered Counties now will 
certainly be in favor of this type of activity. 

DR. KEITH: One remark on this because it has 
been mentioned. If I were in Texas or in Alaska and putting 
this provision in, I would add to it a provision that said 
all lawyers had to go back to school to understand the 
provision so that they wouldn't constantly then traipse up 
to the Legislature to have done what the municipal attorney 
has the power to suggest to his local council, that they 
can do. 

However, sitting here in Maryland I realize that 
the caliber of the attorneys is much above what I have 
heard elsewhere and I don't think that is necessary, but 
one thing that will be helpful that is along with this kind 
of development that you are suggesting for yourselves, that 
you do consider an administrative board such as has been 
described by Mr. Cumming because when the attorney at the 
local level, whether he happens to be, as you are proposing, 
at the County level, when he runs into trouble and he is 
really not sure, he has got to have somebody to go to, and 
if he goes to the Legislature, obviously they will enact 



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something that will get him out of his agony, and that will 
take care of all the Counties because of this classification 
proposal that is going to be rather stringent, and, there- 
fore, you will have moved into this area of power that you 
intended for the County to exercise. 

So I would suggest to you very strongly that you 
listen to the, or adhere to the suggestion that Mr. Cumming 
has put before you that some sort of administrative 
machinery go along with this. This could be legislatively 
established after the Constitution is adopted so that this 
attorney has somewhere to turn and can find out whether 
the State really feels he should have the power and whether 
he is going to irreparably injure any other part of this 
State in this move, and some administrative decision can 
be made, and if the administrator, as Mr. Cumming has 
found himself cannot handle the problem and then he can 
turn to the Legislature and say this one is really a honey, 
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1 MR. SONDHEIM: Could I ask this, is there anyone 

2 here that wants to speak against the broad grant of power 

3 because it seems to me everyone has said basically they 

4 want it. 

5 I want to come back to the question that Mr. 

6 Marbury has raised, I think, because I judged from the 

7 expresson on his face he didn't feel it to be completely 

8 answered, the question that he raised, but I don't think 

9 that is necessarily pertinent to the broad grant of power. 
1° MR. MARBURY: I am not arguing against the broad 

11 grant of power. I am just saying it seems to me that we 

12 are opening up, possibly opening up litigation which would 

13 be a very nice field for lawyers if this doesn't mean what 

14 I think it means, that is that the legislature has no 

15 power to take --to legislate unless they legislate on a 

16 State-wide basis or a classification basis. 

17 MR # ENEY: That is correct. 

18 MR# MARBURY: And that classification basis must 

19 be -- if it is geographical then they can't adopt any other 
test, and they would have to classify the counties and 
say these counties are in Class A, and these counties are 



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1 in Class B, if they wanted to exempt any County, and that's 

2 all legislative power. I mean an act of the legislature 

3 must meet that test as I read this Constitution. Now, if 

4 that isn't correct, but Mr. Eney says it is correct, and 

5 he drew it, so I think this means that, a very severe 

6 restriction on the power of the legislature to modify, to 

7 act for a limited purpose. Now, maybe this ought to be 

8 right, but I think we ought to recognize this. 

9 MR. SONDHEIM: Could I add one thing to it and 

10 ask Mr. Eney this, if I may; if my understanding is correct|:, 

11 Vernon, in addition to the thing that Mr. Marbury suggests 

12 that if the legislature found that this, that the method 

13 of classification was hamstringing it from doing something 

14 that it wanted to do, that its only choice then would be 

15 to change the classification, and by changing the classi- 

16 f ication it would immediately nullify every law that it 

17 had passed under the previous classification, is that true 

18 MR. ENEY: If it was based on the classification 

19 and depended on the classification for its existence what 

20 Mr. Marbury has said I can only emphasize, that is that 

21 it is the deliberate intent of the Constitution we have 



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1 drafted to take avzay from the legislature all power to 

2 legislate in the field of local legislation and to confine 

3 the legislature to the power of legislating at a State-wide 

4 level by public general lav;. 

5 Now, there is, of course, always a gray area as 

6 to what, at what stage this legislation involving more 

7 than one municipality or more than one County becomes 

8 State-wide in its general effects, or its purposes, and 

9 this is where the classification comes in. Admittedly it 

10 is an artificial tool. I would say it is not ideal. It is 

11 the best that we can come up with. 

12 Theoretically perhaps you should give the 

13 legislature complete power to classify and then if the 

14 classification was always done with the highest purpose 

15 in mind, the legislature could legislate freely in the 

16 gray area, but we know that if you give the legislature 

17 complete power to legislate, you have sounded the death 

18 knell for the whole concept of taking away their power to 

19 legislate in the field of local legislation and so we 
have to buy one of the disadvantages of this in order to 



21 grant the advantage. We put a shackle on the legislature 



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1 deliberately, and as Mr. Marbury said, we should recognize 

2 it, but the essence of it is that the legislature deter - 

3 mines what is in the field of public general lav;. The 

4 legislature determines what area of local law is of such 

5 State-wide importance that it should be exercised at the 

6 State level, and after it makes that determination it 

7 withdraws the power of local legislation to that extent 

8 from the counties and then the legislature and only the 

9 legislature can act, but it still must act in that power 

10 of -- in that withdrawn power of local legislation or the 

11 area of that power only by public general law. It cannot 

12 be the legislature for the various counties except to the 

13 extent the classification system permits it. 

14 DR. GULICK: Mr. Chairman. 

15 MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Gulick. 

16 DR. GULICK: Mr. Eney, I notice that in your 

17 statement you say that it is the intent to give the 

18 locality all power possible in the field of local law. Of 

19 course this doesn't say local lav;. This covers the whole 

20 field of the legislative power, and as Mr Marbury says, 

21 the only way you can escape from that is by general law 



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which is modified by the provision for classification, 
and very correctly you have identified classification as 
the tool that has been used to wreck home rule powers over 
the years and have endeavored here to devise a formula. 

I noticed this morning when you were describing 
the formula you suggested the possibility that the classi- 
fication might be on a population basis, it might be on an 
economic basis, it might be on a social basis, and this 
gave each one of us who had some pet ideas about this State 
an escape cellar to which we could retreat and say, well, 
that's not so bad because any economic problems can be 
dealt with by classifying them the port area, and the 
maritime sections, and the mountain sections, and the 
metropolitan sections in separate economic classes. 

It seems to me that the escape clause that you 
worked out is too narrow to meet the needs of a developing 
area where we don't know where we are headed really in 
this eastern corridor with regard to the functions of 
government . 

Dr. Jones and others have called our attention 
to the fact that we may be heading into a period when what 



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1 we are talking about local self-government is all going 

2 to go down the drain because the whole poverty program, 

3 and education, and housing, and urban renewal are going to 

4 be taken over and financed out of the national treasury 

5 because of the great resources available to the national 

6 government . 

7 Unless these States, and this State, can put 

8 themselves in a position to perform the functions of the 

9 government adequately, this is where we are headed because 

10 people are not going to stand back while the experts quarrepL 

11 over this provision and that provision that will be nice to 

12 set up in the law. 

13 We have got to attack this with a flexibility, 

14 and this means that we don't want to tie ourselves up too 

15 tight in the constitutional provision. Your move to get a 

16 short document and to remove the obstacles for action to 

17 suitable adjustment to these changes it seems to me is 

18 admirable. I think it should make a great appeal to the 

19 people, particularly if you are wise enough to restrict 

20 some of the ideas of the experts for things that would not 

21 be popular because the experts are always ready to stick 



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the necks out of the local politicians whenever they go 
to a State to advise them on improvements in government, 
and follow pretty much along the lines that Mr. Scull 
brought up before we broke up of getting a package of thing£ 
that will remove the obstacles to action by the State which 
create adequate instrumentalities of local government in thfj 
metropolitan field, and if you can create that even though 
at this stage it looks like an unnecessary fifth wheel, 
build it up, make it strong, and then later on do just what 
they have done in Toronto of subsuming the existing insti- 
tutions on which you build because the straitjacket that 
you have created here for the legislature is one which it 
seems to me might not only restrict the legislature but 
might make it impossible for the State to meet the require- 
ments that are going to arise from this changing metro- 
politan situation. 

Just right in this State you are going to have 
a different approach to the metropolitan problem of Balti- 
more and its surrounding areas which are entirely within 
your State then you are going to have in the Washington 
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and part of another that is very closely related to the 
District of Columbia and has got to v/ork also with the 
State of Virginia. So that if you try to classify, there 
is two classes already and you only have three left and 
this is only in^ the metropolitan field. 

MR. ENEY: May I reply? 

MR. SQNDHEIM: Mr. Eney. 

MR. ENEY: First of all, I am intensely interestqd 
in the suggestion of Dr. Gulick and I would ask him while 
I am making one other comment to think a little and suggest 
if he can how we can loosen the s traitjacket without 
nullifying its purpose because we are mindful of this, that 
it is very restrictive, but I think, Dr. Gulick, your last 
example is not an appropriate one under the concept that 
we have here because the legislature's power to create a 
regional government for Washington and a separate regional 
government for the Baltimore area is in no way tied up 
with classification. The classification is pertinent only 
in determining whether the legislature itself can pass a 
law, and whether that law by definition, constitutional 
definition, is going to be a public general law within its 



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power, or a local law without its power, but there is no 
restriction at all, and I want to emphasize this, on the 
power of the legislature to create a viable regional, or 
metropolitan, or whatever you want to call it government 
for the Washington area that would be a separate government 
from the one for the Baltimore area. Both would have a 
broad grant of powers presumably depending upon how they 
came into being and so forth. 

I would, however, very much like to have any 
suggestions you can offer as to how we can loosen this 
classification straitjacket without destroying it. 

DR KEITH: Just a question. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Keith. 

DR. KEITH: Have you had much experience of 
special legislation in the State? 

MR. ENEY: Oh, horrible. We have legislation, 
it is public general legislation, and then you say this 
act shall not apply to the following counties, and there 
are twenty- three of them 

DR. KEITH: Well, Dr. Gulick, this system is 
working in Texas where they have a rather stringent 



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classification system, and I tend to agree v/ith you that 
the State has not been hampered in any major way, in any 
way I can think of, in handling a State, what is really a 

-; State matter, as long as it is dealing with a very sub- 

i stantial section of the State. 

6 The thing that it does prevent is, well, in 

7 dealing with the specific problems of Austin, or the speci 

8 fie problems of some small entity. I would like to care- 

9 fully read your classification section, but I would be 

10 inclined to have a stiff classification section and then, 

11 as I say, give to localities all power to act at any time 

12 that they please unless they were getting in the way of 

13 the State, and then have the State able to move in in a 

14 general way on any problem that it wishes to, because I 

15 am very concerned, as Dr. Gulick is, that this State is 

16 really going to be a municipality in itself in the year 

17 2000, as we go into that 21st Century. 

18 MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Gulick, did you want to add 

19 something? 

20 DR. GULICK: No. 

21 MR, SONDHEIM: Dr. Bebout. 



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DR. BEBOUT: I have always been informed that 
correctly intended the Fordham or Texas formula did not 
interfere with the right of the State to take affirmative 
action on a matter which was not necessarily State-wide 
in scope. For example, suppose you have got a special 
drainage, water and other set of problems connected with 
a particular river valley which might involve several or 
many local units but they are in a certain section of the 
State. Now, this is an act, an affirmative act of State 
legislature. It could be interpreted to have an effect, 
direct or indirect, upon the powers or the performance of 
local governments in that area that isn't -- that you don't 
— that no State legislation applies to local governments 
in another area . 

Unless you are assuming that, you are really 
delegating the powers of the State generally to the local 
governments, and that the only way the State can retrieve 
them and exercise thsm positively is by affirmative, or 
rather by a specific denial of the right of the local units 
to exercise these powers, or by -- on this classification 
basis. It seems to me that you get into a great deal of 



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trouble. 

Now, as I understand the Fordham formula, its 
essential purpose was to reverse the presumption with 
respect to the power of a home rule local government to 
act. That is almost the whole of it as far as I am con- 
cerned, so that it will be — the appropriate question 
from the municipal attorney when he is advising the City 
Council, or the County Council, or whatever it is, will 
no longer be can we find it spelled out clearly in the 
State law that we have the right to do this, but is there 
anything in the State law or Constitution that clearly 
indicates we can't, or would this act be incompatible with 
the enforcement or execution of a State law. 

MR. ENEY: That is correct, that is stated 
succinctly that the power of the State legislature to enact 
public general legislation is stated in one sentence, or 
part of a sentence dealing with the legislative power of 
the State. It simply says the legislative power of the 
State is vested in the legislature. The power of the 
County to act locally is subject to public general lav; if 
the State has acted in a given area or made a provision by 



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public general law the County cannot take action that is 
inconsistent or incompatible with this. 

MR. MARBURY: Yes, but what is the answer to 
the question of whether you could legislate for the 
Patapsco River Valley? 

MR. ENEY: You could because the legislation in 
its terms would be applicable throughout in the sense that 
you would not be saying this legislation shall not be 
applicable to Garrett County, or to Allegany County, and 
the Court of Appeals has said that it is a public general 
law if it is generally applicable even though the particular 
circumstances that give rise to the application of the lav? 
don't exist in a given County. 

What we are seeking to do is to say that the 
legislature cannot say that a law will not operate in a 
certain County if it would otherwise have operated in that 
County without the statement that it would not operate. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Loevy. 

DR LOEVY: Bob Loevy, Consultant to the 
Commission on Local Government. I would like to take this 
opportunity to support Dr. Gu lick's point of view. We 



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really didn't come to this question, strangely the question 
of a classification system was hardly debated in the 
Committee on Political Subdivisions, and there of course 
is a large body of literature in political science which 
regards classification as being a terrific limit on the 
legislature, and I think since we only have twenty- four 
Counties in Maryland, this structure or classification 
would be extremely badly limiting in the State of Maryland. 

Another factor which I would like to point out 
to the group is that we have never used classification as 
such in Maryland. The Constitution has provided for it 
but the State legislature has always dealt with those 
units of government that were classified as a single unit. 
A strong minority of us that attended the Committee meeting 
supported that we do not bring classification into a State 
that had never had it before simply because the trend is 
toward more powerful State government, and we did not want 
to tie the hands of the State legislature to solve the 
problems of the second half of the 20th Century, so I 
would like to support Dr. Gulick's position. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Burdette. 



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1 DR. BURDETTE: Mr. Chairman, there is another 

2 aspect of home rule that I should like to raise for some 

3 information and clarification if I may. 

4 Mr. Ray Boileau at the opening of this discussion 

5 this afternoon raised some doubt about the desirability 

6 of these provisions with regard to municipalities and while 

7 I cannot speak for him, and do not attempt to, if I sense 

8 the difficulty, it rests in the question of a grant of 

9 powers to counties subject to withdrawal on a general or 

10 classified basis by the General Assembly, but that when 

11 we get to Section 11.06 dealing with municipal corporations 

12 there is a provision that a County may do a number of thing 

13 with respect to municipalities by public local law but with 

14 the provision that no municipality should lose existing 

15 power, but let us give a specific illustration which I 

16 gather is disturbing municipal officials always in the 

17 State. Suppose that a City like Hagerstown should desire 

18 to annex additional territory, and if we say for illustra- 

19 tion that that is not currently within its existing powers 

20 or any other type of illustration, then it is read by 

21 municipal officials as requiring them to go to the County, 



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and that raises the broad question of policy. This is 

2 based upon the assumption that the General Assembly could 

3 not withdraw from the County the power which is expressly 

4 granted to it in 11.06, but it raises the broad question 

5 of policy as to whether or not the General Assembly should 

6 have a larger role in the determination of these municipal 

7 questions in the overriding State interest which Dr. Gulick 

8 spoke of this morning or whether this should be left to the 

9 County. 

10 MR. SONDHEIM: Are there further questions or 

11 discussions on this subject? 

12 DR. BURDETTE: Mr. Chairman, I would very much 

13 appreciate our visiting representatives making an observa- 

14 tion on this question if they would be willing so to do. 

15 It would be enormously helpful. 

16 MR. SONDHEIM: The invitation is open to our 

17 visitors. 

18 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Norton, would you care to 

19 comment on that? 

20 DR. NORTON.' I come to the subject of home rule 

21 with a bad taste in my mouth. It is the taste that comes 



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from living in Ohio which has had municipal home rule of 
a particularly vicious sort since the early part of the 
century. I call it vicious because it protects the 
municipality so much as to make it virtually impossible 
to get cooperation among the municipalities. I recognize 
it is not the intention of this section to establish the 
same sort of rule in this State. However, I think it is 
important to recognize that what we are talking about is 
a modified sort of home rule. Specifically, it is provided 
here that the legislature can take certain powers away from 
the counties and I think that his is an extremely important 
thing. 

I would like to say though that when Dr. Gulick 
and Mr. Loevy were talking about the -- reserving the power 
of the State to act itself, found in there a warm response 
in my heart because of what we have and the bad experience 
that we have had in Ohio. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I think this has raised the 
question whether there is any compromise between -- 
whether there is any situation that would take care of the 
two problems that have been expressed. 



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DR. BEBOUT: Dr. Burdette raised a slightly 
different question, I think, and I would refer you to 
11.01(b) and 11.06. 

11.01(b) says: The General Assembly may provide 
by law for the creation, incorporation, changing and so on 
of counties and multi-County civil divisions, including 
intergovernmental authorities and regional representative 
governments but excluding municipal corporations. 

Now, 11.06 then makes it clear that any future 
-- any acts with respect to future municipal incorporation 
is turned over to the County and the County only has this 
power. That already incorporated municipalities however 
can't be monkeyed with without the consent either of their 
own governing bodies or the consent of the General Assembly 
by lav; . 

Nov;, the question then really is this, do you 
want to turn over to the counties full power with respect 
to all future municipal incorporations, dissolutions and 
so on, in other, words, protecting only the existing 
municipalities against complete County control by the 
provision they can't be dissolved without their own consent 



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1 or that of the legislature? 

2 MR. SONDHEIM: I think that it is clear that this 

3 is the attempt of the draft. 

4 MR. ENEY: That is correct. 

5 MR SONDHEIM: To do just that. 

6 DR. BEBOUT: Now, my own feeling as I said this 

7 morning is that hopefully you would have no more or new 

8 municipal corporations in Maryland. The only circum- 

9 stances under which I could think of that would make it 

10 sensible would be in case a County was not yet ready to 

11 provide the kind of services that built-up or developing 

12 areas in the County required, in which event I would think 

13 it ought to be possible for the people even if the County 

14 weren't ready to concede it, to find some way to provide 

15 this for themselves on a temporary basis at least, and 

16 in this letter that I spoke of that I wrote to Don Bowen 
IV years ago, I suggested that perhaps it would be worthwhile 

18 to invent a temporary or readily dissolvable municipal 

19 corporation to meet that kind of condition, and the questio 

20 is whether you want to leave the people in such an area 

21 entirely at the mercy of the County. 



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My own general feeling is that the State ought 
not to be deprived of the ultimate power in this respect 
any more than in any other substantive area. 

MR. SONDHEIM: It is likely that either Mrs. 
Spellman or Mr. Scull would find this a particularly 
applicable problem to Prince George's or to Montgomery 
County, and I would wonder if either of them would want 
to comment on what Dr. Bebout just said? 

MRS. SPELLMAN: Yes. Prince George's for instanc 
faces a very serious situation as we hear a great deal of 
discussion about dissolving a bi-county agency, the Park 
and Planning Commission. 

We have twenty-eight municipalities. We are 
very much blessed. There are only twenty -four Counties 
in the State but we have twenty-eight municipalities and 
each one of these municipalities as our attorney tells us 
would be able to do its own zoning. 

Now, it would be vital that this power be taken 
from the municipality, and I should think that we would 
be much more likely today to be able to do this on a 
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1 legislators run in districts and when there is a large 

2 municipality and the legislators are beholden to the 

3 people in that particular little district, I am afraid we 

4 are not going to get very much done. 

5 DR. GULICK: Did I understand that you saw a 

6 better chance of getting a good answer to these questions 

7 at the County level? 

8 MRSo SPELLMAN: The County level. 

9 DR. GULICK: Then at the legislative level? 

10 MRS. SPELLMAN: That's right. 

11 DR. GULICK: Thank you. 

12 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Scull. 

13 MR. SCULL: I don't -- probably I don't know 

14 that I feel that I have a sufficient understanding of the 

15 municipal problems in our County, but I would tend on a 

16 personal basis to feel that -- I would agree with Mrs. 

17 Spellman that the County feels like it is the best building 

18 block in our area. It is 500 square miles and that we 

19 wouldn't want to fritter away our opportunities to plan, 

20 and to work, and to function on at least a region as big 

21 as 500 square miles, and I think we would probably want 



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to do more together with our sister County and with bi- 
county agencies and regional groupings, particularly for 
planning and some of these other functions rather than 
less, irrespective of the merits whether our particular 
agencies have functioned bad or good. It seems to me the 
future is to approach these problems on regional problems 
not fritter away on municipalities. 

DR. CHUTE: We come to this question of maintain- 
ing flexibility if you provide not more than five classes 
and not less than three counties in any one class, and my 
question would be, and I don't know the answer is that say 
today, if it is satisfactory today, will it be satisfactory 
twenty, or thirty or forty years hence, and my guess would 
be that it is likely not to be satisfactory, so I think 
that is a problem. 

Now, another problem as I read this very hastily, 
and I may have skipped over some pertinent sentences, what 
would prevent the State if it wanted to provide something 
for the Patapsco Valley or any other valley setting up an 
authority or a State administrative district, or any other 
name you want to apply, authority only came in about 



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twenty-five — no, forty-five years ago, and handling 
this is a State government responsibility. I don't want 
to get into a discussion of the merits of something else, 
but I mention for those who are acquainted with it, that 
the Metropolitan District Commission in the Boston area 
provides for what we would normally say are metropolitan 
area services, but it is generally regarded as a State 
administrative agency. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I think tomorrow we will probably 
give a good bit of time to the problem of authorities and 
administrative units that may be larger than a county or 
cover several counties, districts, excuse me, yes. 

MR. MILLON: Mil Ion from Prince George's. I 
wanted to return to the municipal question just for a 
comment. I think we have demonstrated, or the counties in 
Maryland have demonstrated in the past ten years that they 
have been able-to provide services in conclaves. We have 
had a very rapid growth in population and yet the needs 
for municipalities has not been shown in the past ten 



years. 



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1 MR. BAILEY: Yes, I wanted to raise a question 

2 as to a possible problem that might arise with the change 

3 in classification. As an example, Howard County has in 

4 the neighborhood of 50,000 population. By 1980 they will 

5 probably have around 130,000 population which in the case 

6 of a classification by population would move them somewhere 

7 in that area from Class A to Class B, or however it is 

8 done. Now, at the time that change of classification is 

9 made, if they have — if Howard County has certain powers 

10 granted to it by the legislature as a Class A County, that 

a 

*/ 11 is not granted, that that power is not granted to/Class B 

12 County, what happens when they make that transition? 

13 DR. GULICK: They get the power. 

14 MR, SONDHEIM: Dr. Gulick says they get the power 

15 DR. GULICK: The difficulty is what happens when 

16 an area looses its power and it has got bonds outstanding, 

17 but classification based on population is automatic, and 

18 when the new census is published the power accrues. This 

19 has happened before. 

20 MR. BAILEY: That means they keep the powers 

21 they formerly had and gain the powers of the new 



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classification? 

DR. GULICK: Usually the range of powers increase^ 
with the population size so that the largest have certain 
broad powers, the lower class have fewer powers, but all 
the powers that are in the smaller jurisdiction continue in 
the larger. That is usually provided in the legislative 
scheme. 

DR. BEBOUT: But, remember now, we are talking 
about a different system. We are not talking about a 
system in which powers are granted. It is only a question 
of powers having been denied, so that if Howard County was 
in Class C which had more limitations imposed upon it by 
the legislature then counties in Class B, and moves up to 
Class B, it would simply be relieved of some of those 
limitations. 

DR. GULICK: That's right. 

MR. SONDHEIM: We are going to have to close very 
soon. Mr. Benton. 

MR. BENTON: I should like to make an observation 
in reference to the municipal corporations. Perhaps the 
fraraers of this document intended to provide silently for 



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1 their demise. 

2 One of the pressing problems of municipal 
g corporations, and, of course, this does not include 

4 Baltimore City that I represent, is the fact that it is 

5 contended, and I think with a great deal of justification, 

6 that they provide services that would otherwise be provided 

7 by counties, and in doing so they relieve the County of 

8 such responsibilities as police protection, fire protection, 

9 however, there has never been devised a satisfactory method 

10 of dividing revenues. Generally the County tax rate pre- 

11 vails throughout the entire County, including the muni- 

12 cipalities, but in addition thereto, the municipalities 

13 have a local tax that we find in some areas of the State 

14 such as Annapolis and Potomac Park have high tax rates. 

15 Perhaps I should close my remarks by inquiring 

16 as to whether or not the Committee has recognized this 

17 problem and simply did not intend to make any, suggest 
16 any solution with reference thereto? 

:; As 1 say, unless some solution is found, it is 

2C very possible that the municipal corporations will go by 

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1 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Gallagher. 

2 MR. GALLAGHER: Could I make one observation? 

3 It would seem to me that if this language were passed the 

4 way it stands, that there would be one tremendous need 

5 to go to the Maryland Code and the laws of Maryland and go 

6 through them very swiftly and carefully to begin to decide 

7 what is going to be withdrawn from the counties because 

8 in the meantime if there is no moratorium so to speak 

9 it can be also sorts of mayhem at the State and municipal 

10 level, so I would assume the way I read it that, yes, at the 

11 County and municipal level there have been some on-going 

12 study made of all the State laws to decide where the 

13 brakes are going to be applied if the present legislation 

14 is passed, the constitutional language. 

15 MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Loevy. 

16 DR. LOEVY: I would just like to answer the 

17 question by saying that the Committee that drew this 

18 provision was well aware of the necessity for an immediate 

19 piece of legislation withdrawing those powers that are 

20 necessary, and that would be the result if the Convention 

21 adopted such a provision. 



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1 I would like to try from the point of view of 

2 the consultant to the Committee to clarify the situation 

3 with municipalities just a bit. I think the problem in 
4- Maryland is you must differentiate between those munic- 

5 ipalities that are located in the counties close to 

6 metropolitan areas, counties that are providing services 

7 in competition with the municipalities, and between 

8 municipalities that are in a completely different position. 

9 those that are far away from the metropolitan areas and 
10 are in basically rural areas. 

1* I think the major concern of the Maryland 

*«* Municipal Lead as I understand is that although there was 

13 some sentiment expressed in our Committee to let the 

14 municipalities wither away, so to speak, it was mainly 

15 those municipalities in metropolitan counties which we 

16 were thinking about, and the concern is that if you put 
IT the municipalities in the far away rural areas under the 
1® County they will be of a definite disadvantage and there 
19 was feeling on the Committee that there should be some 

way that people in small urban areas and basically rural 



counties should be able to form a municipality and provide 



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I basic services such as water. I think that does clarify 

g the situation a little. 

3 MR„ SONDHEIM: Dr. Keith. 

4 DR. KEITH: May I have a quick question because 
g I would like to think about this for tomorrow. Mr. Eney, 

6 is it the intent here that the County will be the basic 

7 unit and that any power that a municipality will get 

8 henceforth must come from the County and does the County 

9 have to stipulate that power? 

10 MR ENEY: Yes, the situation here would be 

11 exactly the converse of the relation between State and 

12 County. 

13 The municipality would exist, I am speaking of 

14 new municipalities now, would exist by virtue of their 

15 creation by the County and they would have a grant of 

16 express powers. 

17 DR. KEITH: Which answers the question, and I 

18 am wondering just why you have changed your philosophy 

19 with respect to the subunit as you go down the chain. 

20 MR. ENEY: To be consistent. 

21 DR KEITH: If this system works between State 



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and County why don't you keep going? 

MR. ENEY: To be consistent. The philosophy was 
that at the local level the County has all power except 
what power the State has withdrawn to exercise at the 
State level. 

It seemed to us it would be inconsistent with 
that philosophy to say that the State could nevertheless 
at the local level create municipal corporations to exercis^ 
local power . 

MR. SONDHEIM: I thought you might call it the 
strong County type of government. 

MR. ENEY: You might. 

DR. KEITH: I don't want to prolong the proceedin 
I would like to discuss this tomorrow because there is no 
reason why the same relationship — 

MR. ENEY: We would be very glad to. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I promise we can tomorrow, Dr. 
Keith, if you remind me tomorrow morning. 

Let me say this, it is unattractive to be rude 
and break this up except I do it in a good cause for those 
who can be classified as drinkers, because we are invited 



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to President Kraushaar's house for cocktails and then for 
dinner at Alumni House at 7:00 o'clock. 

Let me just make these announcements. I think 
as many of us who can come tomorrow I hope will be here, 
and I hope that people consider that they come not as 
something — I hope we all enjoy it, but recognizing that 
we have been specifically asked to this conference to be 
of assistance to the State, and particularly to Mr. Eney's 
Commission. That we will be joined tomorrow by Dr. Colman 
and Dr. Long from out of town, whose names you may have 
seen but who could not be here today but will be here 
tomorrow. Mr. Eney. 

MR. ENEY: Mr. Moderator, I am sorry to tell you 
that we got a message that Dr. Long missed his plane and 
cannot be here. 

MR. SONDHEIM: We will be joined tomorrow by 
Dr. Colman. 

I think that we are to meet tomorrow morning 
here at 9:30, I hope as promptly as possible. 

Those who are Colt fans, we will try to find 
somebody here who will have a radio and who consider the 



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Colt-Packer game of equal, or just slightly lesser 






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importance, and have someone give us the score from time 






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to time of the Colt-Packer game. 






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I think the only note I want to close on is that 






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I believe we have really gotten to the sort of discussion 






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that Mr, Eney had hoped we would. 






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not been mentioned at all and that would be the effect of 






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the now Constitution in operating under the new Constitu- 






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tion of a reapportioned legislature. I have not heard the 






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word reapportion mentioned here today. I think that is a 






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very interesting thing. 






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Unless there is some other announcement of a 






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general nature, we will adjourn. 






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(Thereupon the Conference adjourned at 5:45 p.m.; 












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VOLUME II 



20?. 



THE CONFERENCE ON METROPOLITAN PROBLEMS 
HELD AT GOUCKEP COLLEGE 
TOWS ON, MAPYLAND 



Saturday, Decemb-er 10, 1966 - 9:30 a .m 



Dr. Otto F. Kfauschaar, 
Mr. Walter Sondheim, 

Moderators 



Reported by: 
M. Wasserman 
C J. Hunt 
W. P. Banister 



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DP. KRAUSHAAF: Gentlemen, I think we have two 
new participants to introduce this morning. 

I would like to introduce Dr. William Colman,. 
Director of the Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental 
Relations. Dr. Colman. 

DR. COLMAN: Thank you. 

DP. KRAUSHAAF : It is very pleasant, Dr. Colman, 
we are pleased to have you here this morning. 

And Mayor Beverly Briley, the first Mayor of 
the Consolidated Nashville-Davidson County in Tennessee. 

Good morning, Mr. Briley, and in view of the fact that 
this is, I think, an unusually interesting situation Chat 
Mayor Briley is connected with in Tennessee, I would like 
to call on him in just a moment to begin the morning 
session with some observations about his experience there, 
but before we proceed with that, I would like to say that 
we want to have a show of hands about the number of you 
who are going to be here for lunch with us this noon. This 
is on behalf of humanity and kinc'ness to the caterers who 
fuss a great deal about things of this kind, as you vrell 
know. Let me see a show of hands, please-, and how many 



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will not, I think Chat v;ill be simpler. All right, thank 
you . 

We have some serious competition in Baltimore 
this afternoon. For those of you who may be from out 
of the City, there is a kind of a hysteria in our City 
about a football team which may not be known to you, 
which is called the Colts here, and there happens to be 
a game this afternoon with the Green Bay Packers. 

Now, Walter, I believe we can begin with asking 
Mr. Briley first for his observations. 

MP. SONDHEIM: If we do, I break my word to 
Dr. Keith. 

DR. KPAUSHAAP: Dr. Keith. 

MP. SONDHEIM: That I gave after you left yes- 
terday. 

DP. KPAUSHAAP: Very well. 

DR. KEITH: I defer to Tennessee. 

DP. KPAUSHAAP: He defers to the Mayor of Nash- 
ville . 

MR. SONDHEIM: Except just one thin?, we were 
on that subject last night. I think we would be better 



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off if Dr. Keith said the thing that he was -- spoke of 
the thing he was concerned about yesterday, for a moment. 
I think we will probably come back to it, however. 

DR. KRAUSH4AR: I am sure we will. 

MR. SONDHEIM: All right. 

DR. KEITH: I am sure we will. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I am absolved. 

DR. KEITH: You certainly are. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mayor Br i ley. 

MAYOP BRILEY: Well, not knowing exactly how you 
are proceeding here, I will just give you a little back- 
ground of personal experience that I think had a great 
deal to do with the development of what we are doing and 
how it is working. 

I became County Judge in Davidson County in 
1950. At that time I felt I knew a great deal about -- 

MR. ENEY: If the Mayor would come around and 
stand in front, I think we could hear him better. 

MAYOR BRILEY: All right. I felt like I knew 
enough about county government that I could help solve 
the problems in the relationship that the county govern- 



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ment had. I had been a lawyer prior thereto and \:as 
aware of government, quite aware, but upon assuming the 
responsibility I very quickly, in fact within sixty days, 
saw that our system of government was wronp, and that no 
one had sounded off about it or proposed to do anything 
about it, and I really didn't know what needed to be done. 
I knew where we needed to go but I didn't know how to get 
there, and the result was I went to the University and 
talked to Dr. Dan Grant and different ones, some consti- 
tutional lawyers who were personal friends, trying to 
figure out what were the answers that needed to be done. 

We were the typical old city surrounded by 
suburbia with the land developers going out with sub- 
divisions under the F.H.A. and building up a great big 
city outside of the city, that something had to be done 
about . 

We started off with several ideas. We knew the 
Constitution of Tennessee had not been amended since 1870 
and they had the carpetbagger provisions to keep it from 
being amended. No amendments had ever been made. 

They had a, what we call a Local Limited Con- 



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1 vention coming up, and part of it had the Municipal 

2 Home Pule in it. This V7as in '51. I had assumed office 

3 in September of '50. 

4 I went to that Convention and argued the point 

5 to them that while they talked about municipalities, 

6 that counties were really municipalities, too, and what 

7 they needed to do was give counties attention more than 

8 cities, that by the 1960 census they were going to find 

9 the counties had gained population to suburbia and the 

10 cities were going to lose. V.e argued and debated that 

11 quite a bit. I asked for County Home Rule. The committees 

12 debated that and, of course, the Municipal League took 

13 out after it. If you know Herb Bingham, he is pretty. 

14 noisy. So we had a fight going on, and they finally work- 

15 ed out a Constitutional Amendment that was submitted to 

16 the people in 1953 which provided that cities and counties 

17 might consolidate any and all of their functions by a 

18 vote of the people without and within the county, or with- 

19 out the city and in the county and the city itself. This 

20 was a compromise amendment. V, T e really didn't know what 

21 we could do with it but we felt it was better than what 



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we had had before, and we implemented it by an Act in 
1957, and then subsequent, in 1958, we lost a Charter 
before the people and in 1962 we adopted the Charter. 

In writing this Charter, we took the viewpoint 
that people didn't understand the Government they had, 
much less the one you were going to propose. So we tried 
to assume that there was no Government and we had all 
of our institutions and all of our problems with no 
Government, no local Government to support it. 

As a businessman, what would you do with it, 
how would you think it out? How would you create a 
Government here that could handle the urban problem and 
develop a flexibility of expansion as the urbanized area 
expanded and still also recognize that we had a few 
farms left and we had to govern the service of the farms? 

We came up with this idea of Metropolitan Govern- 
ment which I think is the most simple form of, and most 
complete form of Metropolitan Government that has been 
proposed. The County has 533 square miles, so we placed 
on top of that one legislative body, one administrative 
head, the Mayor, and the departments that he appoints -- 



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, the strong Mayor Charter. 



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Inside of this -- and we assumed, and took Che 
r. old City limits as the first Urban Service District 

4 Vie have a tax rate that is county-wide, and we refer to 
_ it as the General Service District. This provides the 
g roads, the schools, the hospitals, planning, public health,' 
„ the things that you need wherever you may live. The 
q Urban Service District is that part that needs street 
q lights, garbage collection, a little more intensive 
2q storm drains going through private property, and the kind 
H of things you need when you have a built-up area . Vie 

refer to this as the Urban Service District. 
. ~ Now, the same legislative body operates, the 

,, same administration departments operate this government 
where it is. I can best illustrate it that the garbage 
-,/. disposal is a county-wide function or a general service 
-in function. The people out in the rural areas contract 

for this service with private conveyors. Vie dispose of 
^g it in land-fill programs. 



Now, in the central city, the Urban Service 
District, we collect the garbage and we dispose of it in 



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the same place. In the general service budget, Che cost 



g of operating the land-fills is county-wide tax. The 

collection of garbage in urban service is in an urban 
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, service budget only but the same Department of Public 

c Works operates both operations. 
o 

g There are many illustrations but this is a 

very clear one 

Now, our idea is that you only have to have 
one legislative body for all the people to make decisions 
and you only have to have one department to perform the 
,, particular kind of service, whether it is rural, suburbia 



or in the downtown area . 

Nov;, this is basically the plan that we are. 



13 

1 . using. As I say, we had to abandon the idea that we knew 

anything about county government or city government. 

This matter has been to the Supreme Court twice- 
three times, and their decisions are these, it is neither 
a county nor a city, it is both, this is a third form 



,g of local government recognized in Tennessee by the Con- 



stitution and the Statutes, and affirmrd by the people 



gn by their referendum vote. 



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1 The result is the Courts have been very liberal 

2 with this new form and, frankly, more liberal than I 

3 thought . 

4 We, for instance, left several constitutional 

5 county offices in the plan, in the Charter, and I think 

6 under the decisions we might have even ruled those out, 

7 the decisions we have had since then. 

8 Basically, that's it. I would be glad to try 

9 to answer questions . 

10 DR. KPAUSHAAR: Fight. Mr. Briley, I would like 

11 to ask one question. In the Enabling Act or the authoriza 

12 tion that you secured from the State of Tennessee, I 

13 gather from the Szate Legislature -- 

14 MAYOR BRILEY: Yes, sir. 

15 DP. KPAUSHAAR: -- was this specifically for 

16 this instance only, or was it general? 

ll MAYOR BRILEY: No, it is -- in any county in 

18 Tennessee now, they could do it. 

19 The first enabling legislation implementing 

20 the Constitution provision provided for only four large 

21 counties. Since that time, they reduced it to a county 



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1 population, I believe, of 20 or 25,000. This means 

2 that about fifteen, twenty counties can easily qualify. 
? DP. KRAUSHAAR: I see. Are there other questions 

4 to be addressed to Mayor Briley? 

5 MR. ENEY: I would like to ask Mayor Briley a 

6 question, Dr. Kraushaar. 

It is not clear to me, Mayor Briley, whether 

3 what you did was simply to abolish the separately exist- 

9 ing Nashville City Government and continue with the pre- 

10 viously existing County Government, or whether this was 

11 a new creature entirely. 

12 MAYOR BRILEY: Well, the Legislature, I mean 

13 the Courts referred to it as a new creature. I -- 

14 frankly, in my own personal opinion, what we did was we 

15 reorganized a form of county government, an area-wide 

16 government . 

17 Now, when I talk to City people, I don't argue 

18 whether it is City or whether it is County. Some people 

19 will say the City took the County over and some people 

20 will say the County took the City over. Actually, 

21 neither one was correct. 



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What really happened here, we have a Government 
of all the people of this county-wide geographic area 
and they formed this one Government, so it is actually a 
new creature . 

MR. ENEY: Well then, my other question is, am 
I righl in assuming that your entire urban area, the 
Nashville urban area is within the confines of the one 
County, it doesn't lap over into another county? 

MAYOF BRILEY: Yes. We are now beginning to 
have some dense population movement into about five other 
counties, two already and another three coming up which 
I think will develop some type of regional cooperative 
government like Wayne County in Detroit. 

MR. ENEY: Did your Constitutional Amendment 
authorize any kind of regional government? 

MAYOF. BPILEY: No, it did not. This was a 
voluntary basis. We do have statutory the authority of 
establishing regional planning commissions, planning, 
but the decision-making would still be left with local 
municipal government. 



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MP. COOPER: Mr. Briley, in connection with 
the referendum, what was the division of population as 
betV7een the County and the City? 

MAYOR BPILEY: It was about half and half. 
Originally, it was 170,000 City and the balance of the 
County. It is about a half a million now, roughly, but 
the City had annexed about 80,000 people. In fact, that 
was the political incentive that we took advantage of 
in the referendum election. 

MP. AZPAEL: Is there any difference in the tax 
rate, or the property assessment rate as between the 
urban service and the general service? 

MAYOR BPILEY: Yes. Everybody pays the general 
service tax wherever you live, inside the old City or 
outside, and then you pay an additional tax rate for the 
urban services , street lights. 

DR. CUMMING: Is there only one urban service 
rate or one general rate? 

MAYOR BRILEY: That's right, just one general 
service rate and one urban rate, and the person who is 
in an Urban Service District pays both a general service 



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and urban service rates. 


• 


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DP. JONES: How are the district boundaries 




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expanded? 




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MAYOP. BRILEY: The district boundaries are 




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expanded under our annexation law which provides when we 




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have a plan that has been studied, you are not bound by 




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the recommendation of the Planning Commission but thry 




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must have a study of it and make a report on it and a 




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recommendation not binding, of course, and we are right 




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now having a study made. We are tying it into our sir- 




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year capital budget program where we have it on every 




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year. V/e will revise it, of course. 




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DR. CUMMING: The urban service line, so to 




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speak -- 




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MAY OP BR ILE Y : That's right. 




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DR. CUMMING: -- can be expanded. 




1? 


MAYOR BRILEY: By Council action. 


• 


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DR. CUMMING.: Yes. 




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MAYOR BPILEY: Now, the Council has no rela- 




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tionship to urban service districts or general service 




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1 districts and five elected at large, and in writing the 

2 Charter, it was my suggestion that they eliminate 

3 political boundaries for purposes of annexation because 

4 that changes the power structure, so our councilmanicdis- 

5 tricts have no relationship to the urban service district. ! 

6 DP.. CUMMING: You say a thirty-five man council? , 

7 MAYOP BRILEY: A forty, five at large and thirt> 

8 five from the districts. 

9 DR . CUMMING: How many people per member? 
10 MAYOP. "BRILEY: About 17,000. 
H DP. KPAUSHAAP. : Mr. Clagett, I would like to 

12 say -- 

13 MAYOR BRILEY: It is a novel thing in this 

14 charter. I am anxious to see how it works. Every time 

15 the Federal census is certified, no councilman can be 

16 paid until they have redistricted the council. 

17 DR. KPAUSHAAP: I would like to recognize Mr. 

18 Clagett who is new to our seminar this morning, by the way 
It MP.. CLAGETT: Mr. Br i ley, in your County did 
2C you have incorporated municipalities? 
21 MAYOP. BRILEY: Yes, I had six small municipal- 



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ities . They are a part of the General Service District 
and this is a rather strange phenomena, every person who 
was active in those six local governments were opposed 
to the Charter but the population in every one voted 
favorably . 

MR. CLAGSTT: Now, as a matter of detail, how 
did you dissolve those corporate charters? 

MAYOR BFILEY: They still exist. They have no 
authority to amount to anything. 

MP.. SCNDHE1M: Do they have any officials? 

MAYOR BPILEY: Yes. About the only thing they 
have in the way of authority is zoning authority. 

MR. CLAGETT: Well, don't you find that rather 
incompatible? 

MAYOR BRILEY: Not too much. It can be, it could 
be, it hasn't been. I right now think that at least four 
of those municipalities that were put to the vote, the 
people surrendered the charter, but they don't amount to 
anything. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Gallagher. 

MR. GALLAGHER: I know that you had a Transit 



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1 Authority in the Nashville area in the 1950's. Is that 

2 a separate and independent autonomous body or is it part 
^ of your City-County compact authority? 

4. MAYOP BRILEY: It is part of the City-County 

g relationship. I appoint the Transit Authority. They have 

g a working relationship with a private company there by 

7 our establishment of it then, and it continues to be, to 

8 keep it out of being a public operation and to keep it 

9 as a private operation, so we appoint a Transit Authority, 

10 so that the rate-fixing is not put before a political 

11 body. 

12 DP. KPAUSHAAP: Mr. Young. 

13 MP. YOUNG:' Do you have any other special dis- 

14 tricts or special authorities? 

15 MAYOR BPILEY: Yes, I have. I have already taken 
15 over one and I have the power to take over all of them. 

17 We will ultimately do it. We have water districts. We 

18 are in the process of taking those over, and the Charter 

19 gives us that power. 

20 DP. KPAUSHAAP: Mr. Humes. 

21 MP. HUMES: V.'ould you say that having a lar^e 



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Council is an advantage or a disadvantage? 

MAYOP BRILEY: Well, I wouldn't say to any 
particular community that what we have done in this 
field or some of the other fields is what they should do. 
Part of it goes back to your history power structure. 

Vie have been accustomed to having large legis- 
lative bodies in our area anr 3 I hav r not found it to be 
a handicap . The pressure groups can't buy a large body. 
They can buy a small one. 

MR. HUMES: Does this also increase the power 
of the County Mayor? 

MAYCP BPILSY: Yes, I think it gives the Mayor 
a little bit more perogative because he is working with 
it every day and he can be more instrumental with a 
larger body than he can with a smaller one. 

DR. CUMMING: Vhat is the term of the office 
that they are elected to? 

MAYOP BFILEY: Four years. 

DR. CUMMING: Four years, yes. 

DP. KRAUSHAAP: Mr. Eney. 

MF . ENEY: Mayor Briley, I assume that before 



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Che amalgamation in Nashville, it had a bonded indebted- 


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ness? 


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MAYOP BRILEY: Yes, sir. 


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MR. ENEY: What did you do with it? 


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MAYOP. BRILEY: We left the indebtedness follow 


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the function. If it was an urban function, it followed 


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the Urban Service District and we have a sinking fund 


8 


for urban costs. It follows a general service function. 


9 


We put the bonded debt there. We traded some debts back 


10 


and forth, incidentally, as a result of this, and we came 


11 


within $300,000 of having the same debt, so it worked 


12 


out real good. 


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MR. ENEY: Was there any conflict between the 


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people formerly in the City of Nashville and the County, 


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as far as compensation for existing storm sewers, sani- 



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tary sewers, water supplies -- 

MAYOP BPILEY: That was part of the argument."' 
That's what caused us to do what we did to get rid of 
that argument, how you divide school taxes, and how you 
do this, and how you do that. There was a continual argU' 
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1 the Mayor and the County Judge is going to have a shotgun 

2 feast most every night, but it was all economics of the 

3 provision, who is paying. The City people thought the 

4 County was living off of their back, and the County 

5 people knew the City people were , and it was the usual 

6 typical argument. 

7 MP. ENEY : But there was no attempt to have the 

8 County compensate the City for existing, facilities, such 

9 as water, and sewers and so forth? 

10 MAYOF BPILEY: Well, yes, we were doing that 

11 prior to this, but the whole argument was how you do it, 

12 and that's where the argument and the debate was. 

13 MP. ENEY: I don't mean to compensate for the 

14 use of it, but I mean for the capital expenditure, if 

15 the City had invested one hundred million dollars in sew- 

16 ers and those were then taken over by the County, was 

17 there any complaint about it? 

18 MAYOB BPILEY: No. Incidentally, I have con- 

19 verted the water-sewer program to a utility basis and wc 

20 are producing it all on a revenue basis. The consumer 

21 is paying for it now, paying the bonded debt, paying the 



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expansion of it and the cost of operation, and it is not 
on the tax rate at all. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Frank. 

MR. GALLAGHER: V'here do you get your political 
effectiveness? 

JUDGE NORTHROP: You can see that, can't you? 

MAYOR BPILEY: I don't know, a big mouth, I 



guess 



use? 



MR. GALLAGHEP : What kind of ammunition do you 



MAYOR BRILEY: Well, I have reduced taxes in 
the urban area . It is 3 cents per hundred less than it 
was in 195S . 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Benton. 

MR. BENTON: I would just like to assert for 
the record, following Mayor Briley's remarks, that Balti- 
more City and Baltimore County have been arguing about ~" 
water and sewer charges for about ten years, as to the 
division of cost itself. 

MAYOR BRILEY: This is typical. 

MR. HUMES: You say you have reduced the taxes 



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What is the method by which you keep your assessments 


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up-to-date to such an extent that you can reduce taxes? 


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MAYOR BRILEY: The most sorry method I ever saw. 


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It has gone down, our assessment ratio has gone from 50 


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to 33, or maybe 30 per cent now. Ue are trying to do 


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something about that but this has been a very sorry 


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thing. Our assessment ratio has gone down. 


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DR. KRAUSHAAR: I think we should move to Mr. 


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Keith's statement. I would like to remind you that yes- 


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terday afternoon at the close of the session, there was a 


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flourish of interest expressed in the municipal corpora- 


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tion and in any case this is a topic which is prominent 


13 


among the considerations of the Constitutional Commission, 


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so I am going to call now on Dr. Keith to give us the 


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statement that he wanted to make yesterday afternoon and 


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has bottled up ever since that time, at this time. 


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DR. KEITH: I want to say I ^ot it out of the 


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bottle last night whereupon I was told by -- 


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MR, SONDHEIM: Make sure he has the right name 


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on that . 


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DR. KEITH: -- I was told by Dr. Jones at that 



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time to put it back in, but the question was -- really, 
I don't mean it to be impertinent, I was really curious 
why in this relationship you are trying to develop be- 
tween the State and its localities, that is inverting the 
old situation in which the locality only had whatever 
powers were extended to it, either by the Legislature 
or by the old classical Home Pule Provision Which attempt- 
ed to separate the powers between what were local and what 
were State, and now you are inverting this, in which you 
are giving the county an area of power, a full area of 
power , unless the State intervenes in some fashion, and 
then when you get to the county level, apparently you 
are going to say to the municipality one step lower, now, 
we are going to treat you in the old-fashioned way, you 
can only have ttie powers that the county will extend to 
you because, after all, you are not grown up yet, the 
county has grown up, and that's putting it a little 
harshly, but why do you do this, Mr. Eney? 

MR. ENEY: I said yesterday we did it for the 
sake of consistency and that, perhaps, was not a wholly 
accurate answer. It is part of the basic philosophy that 



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1 in the area of local government, the county traditionally 

2 has been the tool used in the State of Maryland, a 

5 strong feeling that it can continue to be used, and that 

4 if we give it more power, it can be even more effective. 
g The Maryland Municipal League would dispute my 

g next statement, but many of us at least feel that the 

7 municipalities in Maryland have never really measured up 

3 to a real governing function. They have, by and large, 
9 performed certain special services *:or which there has 

10 been a special tax, and there have been, over the years, 

11 numerous conflicts between State, County and City assess- 

12 ments , and taxes and so forth, many of which have since 

13 been ironed out but, nevertheless, a municipality in 

14 Maryland has never teen regarded with quite the same 

15 degree of, I scarted to say affection, I don't really mean 

16 that, but as a governmental agency, as has the county, 

a — 

17 it is /more local area organized in some fashion to per- 

1£ form a relatively few special services. 

: ; Nov;, the thought was that if we are going to 

20 put all of local government powers in the county, the 

21 county then should determine whether and to what extent 



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there should be new municipalities and what powers it 
should have and so forth. 

It seemed to us that it would be inconsistent 
to give the full power to the county in the area of local 
government and reserve to the Legislature the power to 
create municipal corporations within the county and give 
them municipal powers. Now, that is the inconsistency 
of which I spoke yesterday. 

It would, of course, be entirely possible to 
apply the same theory that we applied in the State- 
County relationship to the County-Municipal Corporation 
relationship by simply saying that the new Municipal 
Corporation should have all powers except those withdrawn 
The difficulty with this is that we are treating as sor: 
of non-conforming uses the existing municipal corporation 
and we don't want to give them broader powers. We want 
to confine them to what they have and say that what they 
have can't; be taken away wichout their consent, or the 
consent of the General Assembly, but we don't want by the 
over-all grant of all powers except those withdrawn from 
the county to the municipality to broaden the base of the 



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^ existing municipal corporation. 

2 DR. KEITH: May I ask one more question before 

« we leave the subject? The reason I raised the question, 

^ I have noticed in New York City, for example, where they 

c put five counties together in 1898 to make a great 

g metropolitan area, that the citizen who has some problem 

rj which is really quite local and would like just to pro- 

q ceed with a small -part of the City, either one of the 

9 boroughs, or even a sub-unit of a borough, has to take 

10 this problem to City Hall. Now, taking it to City Hall 

11 in a five-county city is quite a job and most citizens 

12 don't know quite how to get there, and the explanation 

13 that you hear around New York City is, You can't fight 

14 City Hall. V/ell, what they are really saying is, You 

15 can't get to City Hall, and I can't see any reason why 
15 you couldn't have jurisdictions lower than the county 

17 exercising again an initial power which could be removed 

18 by the superior level, the county, and in turn removed 

19 by the State at any time they see it necessary. 

20 I think what you may be developing, and I 

21 haven't the sense of the size of your counties, but this 



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feeling, this very strong feeling that Dr. Norton raised 
yesterday that people do want to have a hand on some 
very minor things in life. Do we put trees on the left- 
hand side of the street and not the right? A terribly 
burning issue to them, of no importance to the county, 
no importance to the State. 

It seems to me that if you put all your eggs 
in that county basket and make all jurisdictions large, 
you are perhaps walking into this frustrating fesling 
that we are providing in the democratic system. 

MR. ENEY: I would only add one very brief com- 
ment to that and I think that Marylanders don't regard 
their county commissioners, or county executives as 
unreachable. Father they feel they can walk into the 
office of the county commissioner or the county executive 
and talk about whether a tree ought to come down on this 
street or any other minor problem. 

Keep in mind that Baltimore County, the largest 
county in the Scate, has no incorporated cities or towns 
whatsoever, none at all, and the County provides all 
services, garbage collection in the rural areas, garbage 



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collection in the urban areas. Prince George's County, 
which I suppose is the second most populous county and 
certainly in the metropolitan area still operates on a 
County Commissioner form of government. Mrs. Spellman 
is President of the County Commissioners and I think she 
would bear me out that she doesn't feel at all that she 
could keep away from any voter who wanted to walk in and 
talk to her. 

DR. KEITH: Could I have one more word, then? 

DR. KP.AUSHAAP: Of course, Dr. Keith. 

DR. KEITH: This is really what happens in 
City Hall in New York, Mayor Lindsay can't walk away 
from that little problem, as a consequence, he deals with 
little problems instead of metropolitan problems, and I 
thought you wanted your county to deal with metropolitan 
problems . 

DR. KRAUSHAAR : The ombudsman is the new word 
that has been developed as the functionary person who is 
supposed to receive the complaints of individuals and 
assist them as individuals. Mrs. Hoffman. 

MPS. HOFFMAN: I think that we have to look at 



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1 the problem of the municipal government, the municipali- 

2 ties within the context of the Maryland history and tradi' 

3 tion. We have not only Baltimore Councy, the largest 

4 county, without any organized municipalities, there are 

5 other counties, Howard County, without any organized 

6 municipalities, and in most of the other counties the 

7 area is not covered by any local government, and, cer- 

8 tainly, the vast majority of the people do not reside in 

9 the areas covered by a government underneath the county 

10 level, recognizing that Baltimore City actually functions 

11 as a county. So that it isn't within the tradition of 

12 Maryland history to have organized municipalities. They 

13 didn't start first and then have the counties come over 

14 them as was true in the New England area and in the case 

15 of New York and some of the other populous Eastern areas 

16 ^e didn't have that tradition of organized local govern- 

17 ment , and it has perhaps been a simolif ica tion . 

18 I wonder if Dr. Keith is not really referring 

19 to something other than new municipalities, as we know 

20 them in Maryland which do vary in character. Some of 

21 s them have the true characteristics of general purpose 



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government:, but; some of them have limited functions, 
limited by their charters, as to the purposes for which 
they are formed . 

I think he is perhaps talking about an adminis- 
trative unit of the county government, an arm of the 
county, not a separate government which would take powers 
from the county at the expense of the county, but a 
way in which the county might organize, if appropriate, to 
deal with whatever powers it may have, or whatever 
problems it may have, and I am wondering then if that 
really isn't the thing that this proposal of Mr. Eney's 
doesn't do ideally in the sense of allowing each county 
to determine the way in which it will organize to per- 
form its functions. What might be suitable for Garrett 
County, a remote Western Maryland county, where the roads 
are very icy and people get snowed in for long periods 
of time, what might be reasonable in terms of places 
where people reach their county commissioners in that 
area, might not be suitable in another area of the State, 
and I think that Mr. Eney's draft makes an ideal degree 
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1 DP. KEITH: May I respond? It: would seem Co 

2 me Chat I puC Che issue scarkly and quice ouC of characCer 

3 in a way because in Nev7 York I am considered Che man of 

4 Che meCropolis. All I wane Co Calk abouc is greac 

5 regions and so on. IC does seem Co me, in some way, and 

6 perhaps Mr. Briley had his finger on a way of doing ic , 

7 Chere has Co be some breakdown wichin a counCy, depending 

8 on Che size. I suppose whaC I was searching for is how 

9 are you going Co handle chaC. 

10 . DR. KRAUSHAAP: Dr. Jones. 

11 DR. JONSS: I Chink Mr. Keich has come around 

12 Co Che correct position. 

13 DP. KEITH: You Cold me Co put it back in the 

14 bottle. 

15 DR. JONES: On this discussion, and I am just 

16 wondering if the draft of 11.06 isn't too restrictive. 
IV The only, as I understand it here, that just about the 

18 only subdivision within the county that can be set up is 

19 a municipal corporation. This might be only one of che 

20 ways in which a particular part of the county might be 

21 organized, in order to meet the needs that have been talk 



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ed about here. For instance, in California counties they 
can create, of course they can create special districts 
for particular purposes, fire districts, cemetery dis- 
tricts, street lighting districts, and so on like that, 
buc also the County Board can create what are known as 
county service districts. These are still run by the 
County Board. They are multi-purpose and they can also 
provide for the creation, and election or appointment of 
advisory groups to the county within chat service district. 
This is just another way in which you might handle this 
problem. 



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DR. GULICK: What is to prevent that? 

DR. JONES: 11.06 says it may provide for the 
creation of municipal corporations. Do they mean, does 
this term, municipal corporation, have a specific meaning? 
Is this the only -- is it too restricted. 

MR. ENEY: May I answer that? 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Eney . 

MR. ENEY: First off, to ansv7er your last 
question first, municipal corporation does indeed have a 
restricted meaning. It is down in 11.01 (a) and it 
means only an incorporated city, town or village. Second- 
ly, it was not at all our thought, and I would be dis- 
mayed if the Article XI should be construed to mean that 
the County could not set up any kind of a genesis it chose 
under the broad authorization of 11.02 (a). Municipal 
corporations are mentioned separately, simply to make it 
very clear that the power over municipal corporations, 
with one minor exception, rests exclusively with the 
Legislature, not exclusively with the County. 

DR. GULICK: Mr. Eney, does this general power 
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MR. ENEY: We think so. 

MR. CLAGETT: Within the County only. 

MR. ENEY: Any power within the County, special 
service, tax districts. 

DR. GULICK: Any number and pattern, it would 
be up to the County? 

MR. ENEY: That is correct. 

DR. GULICK: In Mr. Briley' s case , they can 
only create two. 

MR. BRILEY: That is right. 

DR. GULICK: And in Miami, there are limits 
to which they can go. This business of the freedom to 
create districts which involves defining their boundaries 
can be used with many of the difficulties which were dis- 



15 


cussed yesterday about changing County lines; that is, 


16 


if the County within the County can shift property of 


17 


higher value back and forth, et cetera, between the high 


18 


service districts and the low service districts or between 


19 


water and sewerage and garbage and hospital and education, 


20 


et cetera, it can produce some pretty sharp internal con- 


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DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Crain? 

MR. CRAIN: Before we leave the subject of 
nonconforming uses and existing municipalities, as I 
read the two Sections involved here, a municipality does 
not include, the definition of the term, municipality, 
does not include the term County, and if we look at 
Section 11.06, we see that there is no authorization, or it 
appears to me that there is no authorization for a County 
to consolidate or merge. From a political sense in some 
of the Counties that have a lot of the municipalities, 
it may be an easier way to extinguish these nonconforming 
uses by allowing them to consolidate or merge with the 
County, rather than just restricting their powers and 
letting them die on the vine, so to speak. I would like 
to hear some comment on that . 

MR. CLAGETT: I don't think that is reading 
Section 11.06 correctly, because they can be merged or 
dissolved, either with their consent or with the consent 
of the General Assembly by law. 

MR. CRAIN: But the way I read merger, it means 
merger with another municipality. 



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MR. CLAGETT: It doesn't say merger. It says 
may be dissolved, powers subject to — 

MR. CRAIN: Dissolved may be a word that would 
be difficult to bring about, fromyDur political and 
practical sense. 

MR. CLAGETT: In the sense that Mr. Br i ley 
has been politically practical, we are trying to be 
politically practical here and allow them to continue as 
nonconforming uses, but' if they sought to enlarge their 
powers or if they sought to engage in fields where they 
don't already have the power in any way, then they would 
be subject to County restriction, or supervision or 
approval, but would you suggest any other meaning to the 
word, dissolve, than the fact that they go out of existent 

MR. CRAIN: You can use the word , dissolve, 
and stop them. The City can give up its charter. I 
was looking for a way to make it a little palatable to 
them. I am not thinking of the small municipality but 
the large one, for example, the City of Annapolis with 
some 30,000 people with broad expressed powers. As a 
matter of fact, they have under their municipal Express 



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Powers Act more powers than a chartered County, or Balti- 
more City, so it would seem to me that to make it 
politically feasible, I could say, consolidate Annapolis 
and Anne Arundel County, rather than dissolving the City 
of Annapolis . 

MR. CLAGETT: The degree of political 
palatability was really to allow them to continue in 
existence. That was really the compromise within the 
thinking of the Committee, to not dissolve as Mr. Briley 
has indicated. They more or less didn't dissolve them. 
They continued them in existence, but took away all their 
powers, so effectively, emasculated them. We are not 
doing that. We are trying to make it a little more 
palatable than that kind of approach. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Eney? 

MR. ENEY: I wanted to make one brief comment, 
if I understood Mr. Crain's question. He is intrigued 
by what Mr. Briley has indicated has been done in his 
County with respect to really getting rid of municipal 
corporations, so far as function is concerned but leaving 
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suggest that this may be the solution to the Annapolis- 
Anne Arundel County problem. I would suggest to him that 
precisely what Mr.Brileyhas accomplished could be accom- 
plished in Anne Arundel County under Section 11.07, 
because Annapolis, as a separate government, could con- 
tinue, but all of its functions could be by agreement 
with Anne Arundel County, taken over as joint functions. 

MR. CRAIN: Mr. Eney, I think that is certain- 
ly correct, but whether that may be politically feasible 
or not, I doubt it in the present situation. However, 
it seems to me that if you allow the City itself to be 
completely extinguished or merged or consolidated 
gracefully with the County, to bring it into the County 
and completed by the term consolidation, rather than 
dissolution, is what I am really saying. 

DR KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Bebout? 

DR. BEBOUT: Let me state a case and see what 

the answer to this would be here. Some years ago, the 

National Municipal League, for which I was working, en- 

of 
gaged Ellin Mach to make a study of the government /l. T ico..iic<? 

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1 one of the Wicomico County Commissioners. I had to com- 

2 plete the thing because Mach went off to do something 

3 else. In any event, what we came up with was a sugges- 

4 tion for something in the nature of City-County consolida- 

5 tion. We didn't go as far as they have gone in Nashville 

6 and Davidson County, but this would presumably have been 

7 achieved by the adoption of a County charter, which, 

8 however, would also have required separate agreement by 

9 the City of Salisbury. 

10 Now, I assume that something like this could 

11 be worked out within the framework of your proposal, 

12 couldn't it? 

13 MR. ENEY: Yes, sir, I think so. I think 

14 specifically under the last Section that I mentioned to 

15 you, Intergovernmental Cooperation, Section 11.07. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Before we get too far away from it), 

17 x was going to, or I would like to revert back to the 

18 statement made by Mr. Eney, that one of the purposes inso- 

19 far as the Commission was trying to accomplish a purpose 

20 here of consistency, we also have a rather interesting 

21 phenomenon here in the State, and that is the unincorporated 



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of 
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group, which has been rearing its head, particularly in 
Howard County, for example, and it will be rather interest- 
ing to see how the problem of that unincorporated group 
will resolve its relationship with the County itself, and 
with the County government there. I am talking about D is trie 
Columbia specifically, and the Committee was very much 
interested in that situation, and it seems to be one 
which waxes hot and cold, depending upon what the particular 
problem may be, but it was the thinking that insofar as 
the municipalities are concerned, where the County is 
going to have to render services typically municipal in 
character to these unincorporated groups, because they are 
not going to take care of them themselves, similarly, 
those same services should be extended by the County to 
the municipalities, and without the County having the 
control, it would never be possible. You would simply 
run into a wall and get nowhere. 

Now, our Counties are somewhat comparable to 
Mr. Briley 'scounty insofar as areas is concerned, ranging 
from 300 to 600, and by and large we feel that the County 
is a functional unit, and both by reason of the population, 






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by reason of the area, and by reason of its potentiality 
for service. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Gentlemen, we have been on this 
topic now for quite some time in connection with the 
municipal corporation, municipal government and its rela- 
tion to County government. I suggest that perhaps it is 
time to move on to the larger question of the relation 
of metropolitan government to State government and to 
regional arrangements. I would like to direct a question 
at this time to Mr. Marbury. You have been for some time 
concerned as Counsel for the Maryland Port Authority 
and would you comment on the following points: First of 
all, could the Maryland Port Authority be more effective 
if it were a part of a regional metropolitan government, 
rather than a single purpose agency? 

MR. MARBURY: As you put the question, the 
implication is that the Maryland Port Authority has some 
function other than a single purpose. I do not think that 
it has. As I understand the function of the Maryland 
Port Authority, it is simply to develop the waterborne 
commerce of the State, and that is it. Now in that 



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connection it has been granted certain regulatory pov7ers . 
It controls anchorages, it controls bulkhead and pier 
head lines, it controls, can control the loading and un- 
loading of explosives. It can control pollution of harbor 
areas and by dumping of bilge or oil. It has certain 
policing responsibilities in connection with setting speed 
limits in the harbors . 

These are all related to its single, what you 
might call it, single purpose function. It also has the 
power to construct port facilities, to finance them by 
the issue of revenue bonds, and it is supported by State 
taxes, which are devoted to the carrying out of this 
single purpose. 

Now, the waterborne commerce of the State 
obviously will be conducted only in places where there is 
relatively deep water available, and pier facilities. 
They also have power to dredge and remove obstructions, 
although that is only supplementary to the work of the 
Corps of Engineers . The same thing is true of icebreaking 
which is supplementary to the work of the Corps of Engineers. 

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1 relation of this to a region. It is in a sense a State- 

2 wide function, although it is obvious that there are large 

3 parts of the State where no waterborne commerce is con- 

4 ceivable. It just so happens that the Chesapeake Bay does 

5 make possible waterborne commerce to a very large number 

6 of the Counties of the State, but when you get out into 

7 the western area, there is really no place for the Port 

8 Authority to function and no possibility that I see as 

9 a physical matter for them to function. 

10 What region could you state other than that 

11 which is stated in the bill? 

12 As was pointed out yesterday, originally there 

13 were three Counties, I think, which exempted themselves 

14 altogether from the bill, because they were afraid that 

15 the Port Authority might in some way be omitted so as to 

16 benefit Baltimore City, at the expense of their localities 

17 One of them was Anne Arundel County, which, as Mr. Gold- 

18 stein told us yesterday, has subsequently come back into 

19 the fold by act or by removal of this exemption. Another 

20 vas Talbot County, which also has come back into the fold 

21 and the third is Queen Annes , and while the Chester River 



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borders on Queen Annes County, there certainly are no 
port facilities there of any consequence except small 
marinas at present. 

I think it is a fairly good illustration of 
the fact that some of these authorities are really simply 
State agencies, to perform a single purpose. They have 
no taxing power, although they can impose license fees 
for certain privileges, which they have the power to 
grant, such as the extension of pier head lines, et cetera 
but outside of that, they have no power to collect any 
money. They are dependent on the State for support. They 
perform a function which is not limited to any County or 
any municipality, but it depends on the presence, as I 
say, of deep water, or potentiality of deep water being 
available for waterborne traffic. 

I don't quite see how that kind of a function 
could be performed on any basis, except the creation of 
a specific agency charged with that power, just as the 
Public Service Commiss ion has the regulatory power limited 
to certain forms of activity. Number one, it wouldn't 
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1 basis. I don't quite see how the work of the Port 

2 Authority could be done on a regional government basis, 

3 or should be done. 

4 Now, of course, in New York you have a Port 

5 Authority that is limited in its geographical scope; in 

6 Philadelphia, you have one that is quite limited in its 

7 geographical scope. There, perhaps, a regional government 

8 could have performed it, but here, the Maryland Port 

9 Authority is developing port facilities in Crisfield, 

10 Somerset County, Cambridge, Dorchester County. They have 

1* considered development of port facilities at Havre de 

12 Grace, so with four or five different Counties in the 

13 State, and I just don't see how this could be tied in with 

14 any concept of regional or metropolitan government. 

15 This may be atypical, I think, perhaps is 

16 atypical. It is not like a zoning or planning problem. 

17 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Bebout? 

18 DR. BEBOUT: Then we would be agreed that there 

19 is nothing in this draft that would have any effect upon 

20 the State's ability to enact subsequently the kind of 

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it apply to all parts of the State bordering the Chesa- 
peake or to exempt certain parts, as in the case of these 
Counties? This is not affected by this draft? 
MR. CLAGETT: It is not affected -- 
MR. MARBURY: That later exception question we 
discussed yesterday. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I think Mr. Marbury points out, 
this is somewhat atypical and different type than the 
sort of problems that we face in regions in metropolitan 
areas, to which the framers of these suggestions are 
addressing themselves. I almost said the framers of the 
Constitution. I was wondering whether Judge Northrop -- 
some of us have some questions up here, as you can see, 
that have been worked on a little — Judge: Northrop was 
one of the founders or one of the originators of the 
Council of State Governments in the Washington area, not 
as a Federal judge, I might say, but before the Federal 
judgeship. It seemed yesterday some of us favored the use 
of a single purpose authority rather than one multi-purpose 
authority or government to serve metro areas. Would you 
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Northrup, you might say something also about something 
that Mr. Marbury touched on, and that is hov; adequately 
these areas could be served by authorities that have no 
taxing powers . 

JUDGE NORTHROP: I think perhaps my remarks 
might have, yesterday, might have created a false impres- 
sion. The only thing that I was attempting to do then 
was to point out that a number of these, or that the State 
had authority to do a great deal, and as someone pointed 
out, I believe it was either Dr. Jones or Dr. Norton, 
that there were ways, and people did get around what 
seemed to be constitutional difficulties in forming groups 
that could take care of a number of functions, and that 
I felt that this should certainly be emphasized in refer- 
ence to the new constitutional provision that there wasn't 
a creation of new powers, so to speak but merely consolida- 
tion of these powers in the Section 11 of the proposed 
new draft. That is what I was attempting to point up. 

I might say that some people seem to have a 
fear, particularly some of the financial people who may 
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going to get their money, of a new regional government. 
That is something that bothers them a great deal, and I 
feel like Dr. dimming, that many of these services that, 
for example, Toronto has initiated, they began on a small 
scale, and then the various functions progressed and most 
of the functions as they started out were those classified 
by the learned gentlemen who we are fortunate enough to 
have with us, as dealing with space and not socio-economic 
problems and that the socio-economic forces then came into 
play following those very functions. 

Now, in the Council of Governments of Washing- 
ton, we started out on a very small voluntary scale. That 
is the only th Lng we could do under the situation that 
existed in the metropolitan area of the District of Colum- 
bia, because of the fact of the Federal territory and two 
State governments, and we didn't take into consideration 
at the very beginning the municipalities, although we had 
in both, in Virginia -- we did take in Alexandria, because 
that is somewhat the same situation as Baltimore, an 
independent city in Virginia, but wc have seme very strong 
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area, and Rockville and Takoma Park, Hyattsville, other 
places like that in Prince Georges County, but we didn't 
take them in at first because of the fact that we felt 
that they were, as someone has described it, of somewhat 
limited functions. They didn't have school, Welfare and/or 
sewer and water, which is the main problem that we had 
to attack there, but we grew somewhat like Toronto, to 
the extent that what we tried to do with these meetings 
that we brought about was to get a Yes reaction at every 
meeting and finally it got to the point where the problem 
arose of some magnitude, and we would call on Dr. Dullit, 
and he would come down and stay with us until about 2 
o'clock in the morning sometimes, and we would iron it 
out, and then finally we appror.chad the more difficult 
problems of cooperation, let's say. 

I have had a chance to look at it more closely, 
the constitutional provision embodied in XI, and it seems 
to me that it does consolidate in one area functions that 
we now exercise, either constitutionally or unconst itut ion- 
ally and have been doing so, certainly in the Washington 
area, under difficulties, which don't exist, for example, 



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in the metropolitan area of Baltimore, except perhaps 
through this same fear that was evinced by Mr. Briley 
in his formation of a Briley, as it has come to be known 
as, but I don't know that I can add too much to what I 
already said, except to say that I think certainly Article 
XI is going in the right direction, and I don't think 
there is any question but taxing authority will follow 
in due course, but I don't think that you can start out 
with the full-blown government and attempt to impose it on 
any region or any area in Maryland certainly in the very 
beginning, and I hope that the direction of our conver- 
sation will make it easier for people to see that Article 
XI is really a vehicle which can be used and will fit the 
future. / 

MR. SONDHEIM: Judge Northrop, could I ask an 
additional question in connection with that, and that is 
your feeling about the right to levy taxes on the part 
of authorities or any type of governmental unit that is 
appointed rather than elected, whose members are appointed 
rather than elected? 

JUDGE NORTHROP: Well, I think, obviously, 



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sometime along the way you have got to come to regional 
government perhaps, where the people in the region elect 
their officials. Now, I think in the beginning in any 
of these governments, there is going to have to be a 
contribution, and that the government might get by on 
voluntary contribution. However, it is affected in the 
tax rate of the given area, in proportion to their par- 
ticipation in the various activities of that government. 

Now, you take the Washington metro. The people 
that run it are elected officials of the cooperating 
government, and they do contribute to it out of the tax 
monies levied in the various areas, and of course, they 
are very fortunate over there in having a grant of the 
Transit Authority, I think, what is it, $27 million, or 
whatever it is, and then under the regional authority, 
they can draw on Federal funds also, but I don't think ther 
is any question but what the elected officials of the 
cooperating areas are an operating government, just as 
they do in Briley, for example. I mean they have got peopl-e 
elected there, and the Mayor runs it. 

MR SONDHEIM: Don't you think there is some 



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likelihood, and I don't like to express opinions our- 
selves, that a multiplicity of regional authorities will 
develop into a demand, because of the confusion that 
eventually may be created by multiplicity for some form 
of regional government which will simplify the structure 
somewhat and put all these authorities or put most of 
them into a single package? This is more apt to be a 
revolutionary thing and demand rather than starting off 
with regional governments as something that is acceptable 
to people. 

JUDGE NORTHROP: I think it is a revolutionary 
situation. In VJashington you have had for years the 
Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission, which embraces 
both Prince Georges and Montgomery and the Maryland 
National Capital Planning Commission. I think they have 
done a great deal in reference to development of those 
two Counties. Both Counties have sort of a veto power 
within that regional situation, and the fact that the 
regional government, Council of Governments, now isoperat- 
ing the way it does is that it forces those people who 
participate in that activity under control of the County 



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Commissioners in Prince Georges and the County Council of 
Montgomery, to cooperate with the Virginia and District 
of Columbia to the extent that they are subordinate. For 
example, in Montgomery County, the administrators of the 
Park and Planning Commission and the Washington Suburban 
Sanitary Commission are appointed by the County Council; 
those elected officials make those appointments, and 
they are subordinate to them. They do have control. When 
they say you have got to do this, you have got to do it. 
I think that is the answer to it, and the special regional 
people will be under control of the elected officials who 
are -- 

MR. SONDHEIM: It gives an avenue of control? 

JUDGE NORTHROP: Yes. 

MR. YOUNG: I would like to follow this along 
the discussion that was just completed. Earlier the 
question was asked of Mr. Eney whether or not the County 
governments could form special districts ad infinitum 
any time they felt like it, and I thought Mr. Eney said 
Yes; is that correct? 

MR. ENEY: I am sorry, I didn't catch that, 



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Mr. Young. 

MR. YOUNG: Mr. Gulick, Dr. Gulick asked you 
if County governments could form special districts ad 
infinitum any time they felt like it for any special pur- 
pose, and with different taxing districts, and you answered 
Yes. 

MR. ENEY: That is correct. 

MR. YOUNG: I spent most of my life in Califor- 
nia, along with Dr. Jones, I am not sure he spent most of 
his there, but he has been there quite a while. If we 
wait for the evolution of these special districts, a la 
California, into regional government, I hope I don't live 
that long because in California the taxes got up so high, 
the lack of control over some of these special districts 
will nil. Some of them might have been formed by elected 
officials; sometimes in hope that nothing would come of 
them, and when something does come of them, quite often 
the special district has got itself into an empire position 
where nobody has any control over it , and some of them have 
quite strong taxing powers. The Metropolitan water 
District, to name one, in Southern California has been in 



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the past in a fairly strong taxing situation. In fact, 
it was able to build a pipeline to the Colorado River 
that probably never will be filled with water unless some 
of the new dams are built but a Supreme Court case was 
decided against California. If more water won't be 
developed in the Colorado River watershed, millions of 
dollars of capital investment will just lie there wasted 
forever between Colorado and Los Angeles. There are 
examples like this, rampant in California. The irrigation 
districts have very, very strong powers and no direct 
relationship to the electorate or elected officials. I 
didn't mean to make such a strong statement against 
special authorities, because we don't have the experience 
with them in Maryland that California has, but my exper- 
ience in California has been most unfortunate. 

MR. CLAGETT: I would like to point out, if I 
may, that that problem has been one that has been very 
much in the forefront of the thinking of the Commission, 
and in Subsection (d) , 11.02 of our draft, we say that 
the General Assembly, or other representative governments 
may grant to intergovernmental authorities the power to 



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impose and collect revenues, to borrow money and to col- 
lect taxes imposed by the General Assembly, or other 
representative government. 

Now, we make a distinction, and we say that the 
intergovernmental authority can only collect the taxes 
which are imposed by the General Assembly, but where we 
eventually say, if we some day go into a regional form of 
government, which is representative and must be represen- 
tative in character, it will have a wider power and can 
impose the tax as well as collect it. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Bebout? 

DR. BEBOUT: I have been worrying a little 
about the draftsmanship of the last sentence in 11.02 (c) , 
and in light of the wording of (d) , I don't think this 
is the place to polish drafting. 

MR. CLAGETT: We would be happy for any sugges- 
t ions . 

DR. BEBOUT: I do suggest that those two sen- 
tences ought to be read together for the possible implica- 
tions of one with respect to the interpretation of the 
other. I am not sure that you quite accomplish what you 



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say you intended to accomplish. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Gentlemen, I think this would 
be an appropriate time for us to take a coffee break and 
continue our conversation about this question during that 
time and then return here in about ten or fifteen minutes, 
if you please. 

(At this time a short recess was taken.) 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Probably one of the central 
issues and perhaps one of the most controversial ones is 
the one that we discussed before we broke up for the 
coffee break, and that is regional government and its 
relation to Counties and to various other single purpose 
agencies, such as authorities or districts that are 
established, and I think it would be well if we continued 
on this subject until we have had our say about it, and I 
would like to call on Mr. Colman to start the discussion 
in this session, who has joined us this morning and has 
been introduced earlier. 

MR. COLMAN: I would start off with two or 
three general remarks, based on the recommendations that 
the Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations has 



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1 made. As most of you in the room are aware, the Commission 

2 is a bipartisan national body that is made up of repre- 

3 sentatives from the various levels of government, cabinet 

4 officers, governors, mayors, County officials, members of 

5 Congress, and members of the general public and State 

6 legislators and the Commission for the last four or five 

7 years has been engaged in a number of detailed studies of 

8 State-local relations. We have put out a number of re- 

9 ports, and they are listed on some sheets that are back her'e 

10 on the table, and if any of you want to get on our mail- 

11 ing list and aren't on, those sheets back there have a 

12 space for you to do that . 

13 The Commission's general approach has been that 

14 State and local governments in this country need strength- 

15 ening and that probably the weakest link in our Federal 

16 System is the State Legislatures. 

17 In a period of about fifteen short but fateful 

18 years following the Civil War, the people in a revolt 

19 against their Legislatures -cranked into the State Consti- 

20 tutions all kinds of restrictions on how often they could 

21 meet, how much they could get paid, just generally rendered 
the Legi^l at-m- ps into a f ai rly impot e nt , relatively 



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1 impotent situation, and this impotence of the State Legis- 

2 latures has been a big factor in the big shifts of 

3 governmental power that we have been observing in the FederJa 
* System since the early 1930's. 

5 Now, our Commission believes strongly in strong 

6 Legislatures. We believe equally strongly in strong 

7 local local government, so that where we have come out 

8 specifically on these issues is that State Constitutions 

9 should allow local government such powers as are not 
*** denied by the Constitution or preempted by action of the 
H Legislature, and that is basically what you have provided 

12 here. 

13 Furthermore, we have suggested that in doing 

14 this, each State decided more or less in its Constitution 

15 what it wishes to be the dominant local unit because you 

16 can't give both units or two kinds of local government 
1^ residual powers. Otherwise, you have a lot of collisions 

and you make more business for the courts, et cetera, so 

19 here in Maryland you have chosen to make the County the 

20 dominant unit. 

21 However, we also believe that the Legislature 

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must be given carte blanche in the Constitution to alter 
the form and structure of local government, especially 
in the large metropolitan areas, because these are things 
that we can't foresee, and we do not believe that attempts 
should be made to spell these matters out in the Consti- 
tution. 

We believe that the Constitution should con- 
tain no limitations on the power of local units of govern- 
ment to incur debt or to impose property taxes , not 
prohibited by the Legislature, and we would have no, or I 
would have no criticism of this draft in that regard. 

Moving now to the matter of regional government, 
I would have this observation: That there is much merit 
in keeping this matter very general in the Constitution 
and avoiding specificity. The advantages of generality 
versus specificity in the Constitution, I think are 
several. First, students of government, political scien- 
tists, have agreed for many years that you ought to keep 
statutory detail out of the Constitution. Nevertheless, 
the temptation is always strong, when you get together 
and are working on a constitutional document to say, Well, 



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those so-and-so legislators can't be trusted to handle 
this right, so we had better make sure that it is right, 
right here. 

Another advantage of flexibility and generality 
on this matter of regional government is that you want to 
preserve options for the future. 

Things may take some unexpected turns at the 
metropolitan level and local levels, and if you get too 
specific in your Constitution, then that is going to 
haunt you in years to come. Also from a tactical stand- 
point, our observation has been over the country that 
the more general you are in a matter of this kind, the 
less problem you have with the forces of the status quo. 
The more specific you are, the more you have to defend 
and carry the fight, and so there is that, but you fellows 
are much better judges of that kind of consideration than 
I .am. 

Let me move on: to two other strong reasons for 
avoiding specificity in this matter of regional govern- 



ments . 



First, you need to provide flexibility for 



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interstate cooperation and interstate compacts and a good 
part of the metropolitan problem of Maryland is inter- 
state. I say a good part; with all due regard to my 
friends in the Baltimore area, I would say half of the 
problem, half of the metropolitan problem in Maryland is 
interstate in character, namely, Montgomery, Prince Georges 
and the situation around the nation's capital. 

Also, you want to preserve flexibility so 
that Federal requirements can be met with regard to metro- 
politan cooperation. 

What I am about to say may be pretty unpopular 
in this room, but the Federal government is going to move 
in more and more and more on the matter of local govern- 
ment structure and planning in the metropolitan areas, as 
conditions for Federal grants in aid. One such condition 
is coming up. It was just enacted last year. As of July 1 
this may be news to a few people in this room, as of July 1 
no application for a Federal grant in aid from a metro- 
politan area in the United States can be acted upon with 
regard to hospitals, airports, highways and sewerage 
treatment and several other specified things unless it has 
been review e d end comm e nted on by on ar e a - wid e b o4y 

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representing the area as a whole. 

Well, I think in Maryland, you are pretty well 
set up to comply with that law. In other States, you 
aren't, but this is an example of new requirements that 
come along in these Federal programs. 

I would argue that you ought to keep this thing 
flexible so that the Legislature can act in the future to 
meet these exigencies, and specifically, I will be real 
presumptuous now, I think that if you slightly modify 
11.01 (b) to require approval of the voters for the 
creation of any multi-County civil divisions and inter- 
governmental authorities and regional governments, you 
have cranked in a clause there requiring voter approval 
of the establishment of such units, and in my humble 
opinion, you could dispense with most or all of 11.02 and 
leave this matter with the Legislature to deal with. 

Now, you may fear the Legislature, but we have 
got to build up the Legislature if we are going to have 
a strong Federal System, and if we get real specific in our 
Constitution here about regional government, I think we 
are going to have some, we are going to be hemmed in in the 



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future with things that we can't foresee right now. 

I think that is all I have, sir. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Comments on Mr. Colman's 
remarks? 

DR. DILLON: I would like to strongly second the 
comment that the Federal government, through programs 
moving in, into the area of local government. We have 
talked quite a bit about regional government here, and I 
might say that in my opinion, we already have regional 
programs. These are Federal programs. The Federal 
government is, through legislative action now, encouraging 
and making as a requirement in many areas like health that 
funds be spent in what they call regional centers. That 
word, regional.!,, there is really sub-regional in a sense, 
but it does require a comprehensive planning by an agency 
that encompasses areas that are not normally areas that 
are covered by narrow jurisdictional boundaries; this 
comprehensive planning that is required is a requirement 
that must be met in order to get the funds, so these 
programs, some of them are very new. They have not yet 
been implemented, but they will be implemented, and when 



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through their planning, programming and budgeting, require 
a format which is cost-benefit ratio type procedure, 
which will have an impact on local government, too, in 
terms of staff, staffing and also perhaps even in terms 
of internal organization of local government, so it is just 
like I think a football coach scouts the team he is going 
to play in the future in order to make his plans. I think 
that this is going to be necessary. I also strongly con- 
cur in the views that any Constitution should be as broad 
as possible, because the plays are called on the field, 
and the State Legislature will be calling some of them 
and local people will be calling others, and any restric- 
tions that either are too rigorous on the State Legisla- 
ture or that prevent the creation of effective, positive 
power at the local level, and we hear a lot about negative 
power, and we have it all over the place, but it seems to 
me that the thing that will be necessary in order to keep 
with these Federal programs is positive power at the local 
level. 

How you get that is, of course, a different 
matter, but I think you can get it best by retaining a 



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1 high degree of flexibility in the Constitution. 

2 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Colman, did I understand 

3 you to say that you thought that the establishment of 

* regional government would be best served by not trying to 
5 be explicit in this Section 11.02? 

MR. COLMAN: I think that you ought to authorize 

• the Legislature to create regional arrangements, and you 
8 do that in actually 11.01 (b) . You authorize the estab- 
^ lishment of multi-County civil divisions and intergovern- 

10 mental authorities and regional governments. I would 

11 just say, subject to approval of the voters in the area 
x * encompassed. 

15 MR. MARBURY: We went over that ground yester- 

** day , and I think it is clear you won't get anything 

done if you put that provision in. The Section of 11.02 
*« is intended to make possible action by the Legislature, 
1? by the General Assembly in certain specific areas and 

by where you can get consent of the local people to do it, 
19 and to do it where you can't get consent. It seems to me 

c ^ that you will just be rendering the thing negatory by 

21 

adding Section (b) , provision for referendum, and that 



15 



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Section (b) as it stands needs some further implementa- 
tion. That is my thought. I have no pride of authorship 
and have had nothing to do with the draftsmanship, but I 
would certainly not agree with that suggestion. 

DR. BEBOUT: I was surprised that Bill is mak- 
ing this statement. I had puzzled over the possibility 
of simplifying Section 11.02. It offends my sense of 
constitutional austerity, but as I see it, the principal 
reason for 11.02 is precisely to avoid making the creation 
of regional governments hang on a popular vote. 

MR. MARBURY: That is right. 

DR. KEITH: This is a charter bill. An instru- 
ment of government is a charter. 

MR. COLMAN: I am no particular crusader for 
hanging this on a popular vote. I am a crusader, though, 
for leaving the discretion with the Legislature, and I 
think certainly 11.01 (b) authorizes the Legislature to 
create regional governments, and in my opinion, that is as 
far as you need to go. My onlyreason for suggesting that 
other was that if you felt for reasons of political 
tactics that it was desirable to harness in a referendum 
approval, then yourHgA&LAo.&a R ^R T ^^\Q^t particularly 





1 






2§9 




1 


lengthening or making more specific the provisions of 




2 


11.01 (b) . 




3 


DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Jones? 




4 


DR. JONES: I certainly agree that a constitu- 




5 


tional provision should be as general as possible, but 




6 


there are times, it seems to me, when experience teaches 




7 


us that some more specific, provision might be put into a 




8 


Constitution. 




9 


I think the last ten or fifteen years have 




10 


taught us that it is desirable for regional governments 




11 


to be set up either from the top or from the bottom, de- 




12 


pending upon the circumstances. I thought this was 




13 


/ 
essentially what they were getting at here. The Legislatur 


,1 


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could act to set up a regional government under this pro- 




15 


vision, but the Counties that consider themselves to be 




16 


part of a region can over a period of time evolve into a 




17 


full-fledged regional government and at the proper time 




18 


take such steps, and this, it seems to me, to be desirable, 




19 


but one of the things that I think is happening, at least 




20 


in some parts of the country is that regional councils 




21 


are moving in large part on their own initiative, pushed 






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1 by outside forces, of course, but moving on their own 

2 initiative to recognize that they have got to insert 

3 limited fields at least have governmental power. That 

4 goes beyond mere cooperation. 

5 MR. COLMAN: But Section 11.07, as I read it, 

6 authorizes the Counties to get together to form a coopera- 

7 tive regional government, if you wanted this to evolve 

8 from the bottom up, so to speak. 

9 DR. JONES: I don't know whether 11.07 makes 

10 it possible for them to evolve into a regional government. 

11 It permits them to cooperate,, 

12 MR. COLMAN: But it permits them to establish 

13 joint enterprises. 

14 MR. SONDHEIM: Is it possible with the threat 

15 of the State's doing it, it may operate to encourage some 

16 of the Counties to take action on their own? 

17 DR. JONES: It would in California. 

18 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Wins low? 

19 DR. WINSLOW: As I read Section 11.02, in par- 

20 tial answer to Mr. Colman, it is not, it does not appear 

21 to me that this Section is intended to restrict legislative 



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1 power. On the contrary, the power is quite specifically 

2 with the Legislature to create regional governments, but 

3 once the region is set up by the General Assembly, in 

4 11.02, it is intended as I see it, to guarantee, as far 

5 as possible, that regional governments be representative 

6 and not merely administrative units of the State. 

7 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Gallagher? 

8 MR. GALLAGHER: Looking at 11.02 (a), where 

9 the various methods of implementing a regional type 

10 government are set forth, one of the methods appears to 

H me to be useless, and that is, by the affirmative action 

12 f a majority of the registered voters of a proposed 

13 region. That means, if you use registered voters, that a 

14 stay-at-home vote is a no vote, and I can't conceive of 

15 anything passing if you have it have a majority of the 

16 registered voters. I realize that this has some tradition 

17 in existing constitutional language, but if anything is 

18 ever going to have a chance, it seems to me it ought to 

19 have a chance predicated upon the Yea or Nay of those 

20 actually voting on the question. 

21 MR, CLAGETT: The next sentence takes care of 



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that, voting upon a petition. That very thought is 
included in the phrase voting upon a petition. 

DR. WINSLOW: Majority of voters voting upon a 
petition. 

MR. GALLAGHER: Registered voters. 

MR. MARBURY: They have to be registered, but 
it is those who register and vote. 

DR. KEITH: It is voting on the issue. 

MR. CLAGETT: That is right. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: There is another troublesome 
point on this, if you take something less than a governing 
entity, such as a County or a municipality, how do you 
draw the lines for those who are to vote and those who 
are excluded in the vote? 

MR. BAILEY: I think if you will look at that 
sentence again, you will see that the percentage of the 
voters refers only to those people who sign the petition, 
not to those who must vote on the question. 

MR. GALLAGHER: May I ask what purpose the 
adjective, registered, serves in the entire language? 

MR. ENEY: Mr. Moderators, could I interject? 



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We are now talking semantics, and it is hardly the func- 




2 


tion of this group to do that. I think we would lose 




3 


ourselves. I think the points have been considered, and 




4 


as a matter of fact, the phraseology of this particular 




5 


Section is now before our Committee on Style. 




6 


DR. KRAUSHAAR: Thank you, Mr. Eney. 




7 


MR. CLAGETT: I would like to make one addition, 




8 


though, to the consideration here. You will notice that 




9 


in Subsection (c) , the powers that are relinquished by 




10 


the Counties or withdrawn by the General Assembly, if the 




11 


region should ever be dissolved or some other form created, 




12 


the powers which have been withdrawn in one way or the 




13 


other go back to the Counties and that provision, we felt, 




14 


was a necessary one and would not be included where you 




15 


left it entirely to the General Assembly to create, because 




16 


when it got through creating and then dissolved, it might 




17 


keep and thus withdraw the broad grant the Constitution 




18 


has given. 




19 


DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Bebout? 




20 


DR. BEBOUT: I assume that before regional 




21 


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1 the Assembly must divide the State up, completely into 

2 regions. In other words, put boundaries around regions 

3 all over the State. Is this correct? 

4 MR. ENEY: If you will leave out the word, 

5 completely, yes. The Legislature must create a region 

6 or regions by delineating its boundaries before you create 

7 a government for that region, but that is not to say that 

8 you have to divide the entire State into a series of 

9 regions . 

10 DR. BEBOUT: Suppose a group of Counties, the 

11 State not having acted yet to divide the State into regions 

12 decides they would have to create a regional government. 

13 They have to go to the Legislature. 

14 MR. ENEY: Have the region defined. 

15 DR. BEBOUT: This is semantics, but if you 

16 mean a simple region might be set up, maybe you had 

17 better say the boundaries of a region or regions. Other- 

18 wise, it sounds — 

19 MR. ENEY: Yes. 

20 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Brooks? 

21 MR. BROOKS: I wanted to suggest we go back foi 



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a moment to something that was discussed right before 
the recess, and that is really a broader policy question, 
which is this. The Commission has discussed it at some 
length. There have been a number of remarks in behalf of 
a great deal of flexibility in the broadest terms in the 
Constitution permitting all kinds of alternitive solutions 
to the metropolitan kind of problems that might exist. 
The question is whether or not you really want to permit 
total flexibility in the area of any kind of regional 
government . 

The Commission contemplates that th^.re will 
under its provisions continue to be Statewide commissions 
or special authorities to serve Statewide functions, and 
classify for instance the Port Authority in that classifi- 
cation of authorities that would exist to perform a State 
function, and that underneath the County governments, the 
Counties would be free to establish whatever authorities 
they might deem appropriate to handle any specific prob- 
lems within a County, in addition to establishment of 
municipalities . 

The question area really arises between the 



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County and State level as to whether or not the flexibility 
permitted in the Constitution should be so broad as to 
permit both, first, development of a multiplicity of 
authorities and at the same time provide for the formation 
of regional governments; or whether or not the very fact 
that you first have a multiplicity of authorities works 
against the creation of any kind of regional government 
through the creation of special interest groups, the member 
of which are all appointed because of special interests, 
that then really militate against the formation of any 
kind of regional government that would have absorbed the 
same functions and responsibilities delegated to these 
authorities; or whether or not in order to create addition- 
al incentive for the creation of some kind of regional 
government that would be more responsive, it is thought, 
to the public involved than would the various authorities, 
actually disallow the creation of the authorities and only 
permit for the creation of regional governments to resolve 
these functions. 

The question is, is that much flexibility 
really desirable or has the experience not only in this 



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country but elsewhere beensuch that after you get 50 or 
60 authorities, they themselves work against the creation 
of a combination of these into a regional government 
absorbing them all. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Colman? 

MR. COLMAN: In responding to what John Brooks 
just asked, I would make a case, I think, for complete 
flexibility, if you will, with the Legislature, because 
I don't think that one can foresee that under no circum- 
stance should it be possible for the Legislature to create 
a special authority, and I think the Legislature ought to 
be authorized to alter the form and structure of local 
government in the way that you have described here. I 
think it ought to be authorized to create regional argu- 
ments, but I think you ought to not go further and try to 
specify a particular route for the meeting of metropolitan 
problems in Maryland. I just don't think there is a 
single route. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I would like to ask Dr. Gulick 
who yesterday, if I remember correctly, Dr. Gulick, urged 
pretty forcefully and said that the State had respons ibilitjy 



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for providing metropolitan government. 

DR. GULICK: The State had the responsibility 
for making the whole structure and system of local govern- 
ment adequate to meet the requirements of the area and 
one of the aspects that is in danger at the present time 
of being missed is in the metropolitan areas, particularly 
with the point that Mr. Jones and I both made yesterday, 
and Mr. Colman today, that the States must accommodate 
themselves to deal with the requirements that are going to 
be developed at the Federal level. Any delay in meeting 
those means millions of dollars of Federal aid available 
to assist the State in meeting the problems of the metro- 
politan area. 

Coming to this question that has just been 
raised by Colman, I completely agree, I think all of us do, 
with the idea that the Constitution should be as simple 
a document as possible, dealing with the broad outlines 
and philosophy, and insofar as it refers to functions of th 
Legislature, any provision is a restriction, not a grant 
of power. The grant of power is inherent in the system. 
With the new philosophy, which you are building, of 



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authority to the County, to assume all powers which are 
not denied it by the State, this same doctrine applies 
to the County, so that any provisions you put in here about 
how the County is going to act in these fields are a re- 
striction of the freedom of the County to act. 

Now, this gives some good logic to Colman for 
saying, Don't put in things that are going to restrict 
you in new ideas for meeting these situations. In spite 
of that, I think that this draft is wise in presenting 
pretty much the outline that it has here of metropolitan 
institutions, because of the great need at this time in 
American history to develop a new approach in the metro- 
politan areas. This language, a good deal of it isn't 
strictly necessary from the standpoint of the development 
of these metropolitan institutions. The State would have 
the power to set these up by general law and still there 
is an advantage in having in the Constitution a statement 
which outlines, and it doesn't outline just one method of 
approach, it outlines three methods of approach, and it 
does have certain restrictions which confine the initial 
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I think it would be better from the standpoint 
of educating the people, educating the County officials 
and those who have to participate in this development, to 
have a number of paths there. It is a good thing, when you 
are going through the woods in unknown territory to have 
a couple of paths laid out and not to wander all over 
the grass the way you do when you don't have some laid 
out, so that it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that it is 
desirable at this stage. 

The great thing that we lack in dealing with 
this new pattern of urban settlement is the capacity to 
organize ourselves for positive action, and to develop 
plans, and to pool our resources and get out teamwork 
lined up, and this suggests methods which are not too 
restrictive, which would encourage and permit that. This 
isn't the last Constitution that Maryland is going to 
write, so that in this rapidly developing area, if you have 
something that is feasible and meets the existing situa- 
tion, it doesn't produce too much of an effort to solve 
the internal conflicts in this document. Perhaps you 
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which would not happen if you left the field wide open 
to argue about the situation. 

I have got one more point: A fundamental issue 
higher in this State, I learned by listening, is this 
relation which exists also in other States between the 
all urban core and the suburban element that is outside 
in that many of those who have moved into the suburban 
area have done so to escape the headaches, the social 
problems, and they thought the tax problems of the area, 
but they have now discovered that when they have to pay 
for sewers, water and schools and all the rest of it, 
their taxes are going to be on a par, if not higher than 
those of the heavily populated areas. 

The real threat, the real threat is the desire 
to escape from a sense of responsibility and from civic 
participation in the solution of the social and economic 
problems. This we are not going to solve through the 
metropolitan device. 1 think we can do pretty well with 
the service requirements. We can do pretty well with 
schools, hospitals, roads, water, sewerage. We can even 
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1 think even that reaches beyond. The agencies through 

2 which we are going to get a moral, a moral answer to the 

3 responsibility of those of us who have higher incomes and 

4 have gone off to the suburbs to live, the moral respon- 

5 sibility is going to be handled through governmental 

6 institutions, as well as religious and other institutions, 

7 but it is going to be handled through governmental insti- 

8 tutions, through the State, and not through the metropoli- 

9 tan government, and through the Federal establishment. 

10 The nature of our economy has carried us to the place 

11 where the problem of the disadvantaged who are caught 

12 in the poverty trap, and whose children are condemned 

13 to the ideas and the educational opportunities, the employ 

14 ment opportunities that are involved, will not be solved 

15 by the creation of the metropolitan area. 

16 Now, the minute you abandon that as the thing 

17 you are x^orking on and say, We are working on the effec- 

18 tive solution of our service problems, then you can, throu£ 

19 this device of metropolitan establishments and through 

20 taking the County as a unit, you can avoid the creation of 

21 a great multiplicity of districts and move towards the 



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next stages and the participation of State and Federal, 
but this concept means that you mustn't so strangle your- 
self with restrictions that you leave yourself where these 
problems can't be dealt with. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you, Doctor. 

MR. CLAGETT: I have got a question. I am 
confused. Are you saying, Dr. Gulick, that the solution 
is Federal, or are you saying that the solution is local? 

DR. GULICK: I am saying that the solution is 
Federal, State and local, and that the effort of lawyers 
to define each problem into a function and say, This 
function is Federal; this function is State; this function 
is local, gets us nowhere. You heard Briley say that 
garbage removal is partly central and partly central ser- 
vice area and partly none. I tell you that part of it is 
State and part of it is Federal, when we get to water 
pollution, et cetera. Every major activity -- when I was 
City Administrator of New York, I thought that we had 
nothing to do with international affairs. I found, my Cod 
the City of New York had $200,000 a year in the budget 
which I couldn't take out, because the State Department 



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wouldn't help, and we had to clean up the ticker tape 
parades for foreign diplomats, and of course, you have 
to police. It cost us two and a half million dollars when 
Kruschev came to New York, in the increased overtime of 
the Police Department in the City of New York. That is 
international, so that this nation has developed to the 
point where there is nothing that is purely national, or 
purely State, or purely metropolitan, or purely local. 
They are all shot through, and we have got to, therefore, 
be prepared to restructure our concepts as to these ac- 
tivities . 

Now, I will grant you that if we have a kinder- 
garten education laid out, with supervisors who come from 
the Federal Bureau of Education and from the State Depart- 
ment of Education, and from the County Board, it is going 
to be fairly complex, if you also want to have citizen 
participation through advisory or other groups, but life 
is complex, and it isn't going to simplify by saying, We 
can say this is public education, this is local. 

Are you still confused? 

MR. SONDHEIM: I was just going to suggest, 



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Mr. Clagett, I think yesterday Dr. Gulick said the most 
important thing is for the State to be structured so that 
it can be a participant in programs that are mostly 
Federal programs, am I right? 

DR, GULICK: That is right. 

MR. SONDHEIM: And not find that it is not in 
motion to utilize them, and thereby save its own soul. 

MR. CLAGETT: I think I get the Doctor's point. 

DR. KEITH: Could I raise a point, hanging it 
on the end of it? There are two points that he made that 
really strike me: This point that things cannot be 
separated . 

As a matter of fact, when I was working on Home 
Rule in Texas, I read a report by Dr. Gulick at the time 
that said you can take health and try to divide it up, 
and you will find it is at the lowest level and at the 
World Health Organization, and it is all levels in between. 
As I look at this document you have written, the one ques- 
tion I raised yesterday was at the regional level you 
are still going to try to separate certain powers by this 
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stipulate those as regional, and what I was really asking 

is 
you yesterday/when you are going to ask either the State 

or the County to do that, and you are walking back into 
the same old track that you have been in when your relation- 
ship between the State and the locality or the County, 
as you use it here, so I simply was observing to you why 
don't you use the principle that you developed of allow- 
ing the lowest level of government to feel free to exercise 
all kinds of powers of health as long as it doesn't get 
in the way of the County; the County exercise all kinds 
and powers of health as long as it doesn't get in the 
way of the region and the region to exercise all kinds 
of powers of State as long as it doesn't get in the way 
of the State, the State to exercise powers of health, as 
long as it doesn't get in the way of the Federal govern- 
ment, and ad infinitum until we get to 1110, which 1 
suppose we will have when the Russians and we both land on 
Mars. He makes this point so terribly well. You can't 
divide these things, and yet you go back in the old trap 
of trying to do it with your regional structure when you 
try to devise it. .That is one. The second point, you 



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have restricted here, Dr. Gulick raised the question of 
restriction, you have restricted the possibility of the 
region ever coming to pass, by the fact that the General 
Assembly can sit on its hands, and in view of the fact that 
the boundaries have to be drawn. John Bebout raised 
this issue with you. So many times we have seen govern- 
ments empowered to give, that is, State governments 
empowered to grant Home Rule. In Pennsylvania, was it 
forty years or something, they were empowered to grant 
Home Rule, and the State Legislature simply sat on its 
hands. I think this provision here could be rather easily 
reworded to say that if the State Legislature doesn't 
act, there is some method by which the Counties or even 
the public, which you have empowered to move for regional 
government, could move. 

The second restriction that troubled me was one 
that Dr. Gulick alluded to in private conversation, the 
fact that the General Assembly may grant to intergovern- 
mental authorities the power to impose and collect revenues 
If the State has plenary power , I woui'd think it could 
grant anything it damn well please. I don't understand 



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1 why you have to do this because this becomes both a 

2 restriction on the State and restriction on the County in 

3 terms of the interpretation as you developed it and which 

4 Dr. Gulick placed so well. 

5 MR. SONDHEIM: I raise one question that Dr. 

6 Keith has raised, Mr. Eney, and that is whether regional 

7 government could be established without any action at all 

8 on the part of the State. I think you said before that 

9 this couldn't, but I think some of us may have read into 

10 this that it could, what the intent of the draft is. 

11 MR. ENEY: The intent of the draft is that no 

12 regional government can be established until a region is 

13 established and only the State Legislature can establish 

14 a region. I quite agree with Dr. Keith's statement that 

15 we could simply change the phraseology and create a 

16 system under which regional government could be created, 

17 brought into being, if the Legislature refused to act to 
15 create a region. Those drafts have been drawn, and they 

19 were the source of great debate in the Commission, and 

20 what you see here is the result of the final action of the 

21 Commission, by a divided vote — I couldn't remember the 



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1 percentage — the language of the two proposals will be 

2 in the Report for consideration at the Convention. You 

3 do have one practical problem which you must keep in 

4 mind, and I don't think it is quite so simple a matter of 

5 language as Dr. Keith indicated, because if you say that 

6 the establishment, bringing into being after a regional 

7 government can best, or be exercised by more than one 

8 governmental unit, you have to have some means to resolve 

9 the conflicts. A County may decide it is going to have 
1° a region consisting of and Anne Arundel and Howard County, 
** and then maybe Baltimore City or the residents there want 
** a region consisting of Anne Arundel, Baltimore City and 

13 Baltimore County. What the draft that was prepared did 

14 in effect was to say that the Legislature should establish 

15 regions within a certain time. If they fail to do so, 
here are the regions. The Legislature can change them 

17 thereafter, but until they act, here they are. 

18 Now, that was the approach that the majority 

19 of the Commission deemed not desirable. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I would like to suggest one 

thing if I could, that in light of Dr. Gulick's statement, 



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whether we might very briefly have a word if they want 
to, and not if any one of them doesn't from Mr. Benton 
from the City and Mrs. Spellman from the Metropolitan 
Washington, perhaps from Mr. Humes and then finally, if 
Senator Hughes would like to say something as a Legisla- 
tive leader, but not currently from a metropolitan area. 
Could we try that? 

MR. BSNTON: Yes. This is the first time this 
particular problem has been focused or been brought to 
my attention, and I can really see a great deal of merit 
in going in either direction, and 1 must say that I would 
want to contemplate on the question before expressing an 
opinion. Perhaps Mrs. Hoffman would. 

MBS. HOFFMAN: No. 

MR. BENTON: There is a lot to say in either 
d irection. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mrs. Spellman? 

MRS. SPELLMAN: At this moment, I would like to 
ask a question, if I may, about the establishment of the 
boundaries and regions by the Legislature, and I would 
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into the responsibilities of the Legislature and v/hy the 
Counties themselves could not determine that we are by 
virtue of our interests and our needs a proper region. 

MR. ENEY: There are two reasons, not shared 
by all Members of the Commission. One is the practical 
problem which arises if you confer upon each County, or 
each group of Counties, the right to determine what 
regions they want to belong to. To use Dr. Gulick's 
point, the overriding interest of the State, as exemplified 
by the State Legislature in creating regions and regional 
governments, it might very well be that Prince Georges 
and Montgomery County would decide that they want to go 
off and have their own region and this might be contrary 
to what is best for the State, and therefore the Legis- 
lature ought to have the right to say, That is very nice, 
but we don't approve. We want to add Charles County into 
the group, even against your will. 

The second part of the problem is the purely 
practical one of resolving conflicts. Charles County, 
to use the same illustration, may desire to be in the 
metropolitan region and Prince Georges and Montgomery 



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may say we don't want you. Some agency has to resolve thi< 
and the feeling of the Commission is that it should be 
resolved in the State Legislature. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Eney, I think that raises 
a question as to whether the State does not already have 
that grant of power without defining it; that is, in 
both cases, you used, in the one case in which a group of 
Counties desired to form a region, and in the other case 
in which, say there was a conflict. 

MR. ENEY: Let me say here, you have to 
differentiate between regional government, which is what 
I understood Mrs. Spellman to be talking about, and gen- 
eral authority. Now, the Commission has adopted the 
approach of taking neither of the two courses that John 
Brooks posed, but let's take both, and the Counties may, 

under 11.07 create authorities, joint authorities or by 

a 
agreement agree to pool their resources for/given pur- 
pose, or perform joint functions. They don't need the 
assent of the State Legislature. They have the assent 
in the Constitution, and the reason the provision is there 
is to make it perfectly clear that they don't need the 



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assent of the Legislature, but to form a government for 
a given region is something else again, and the Legis- 
lature does indeed have the power under 11.02, but 11.03 
is put in specifically to make it clear that, subject to 
the power of the Legislature to delineate the regions, the 
Counties and the people also have the power to call into 
being regional government.' 

DR. KEITH: May I ask a question? 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Keith. 

DR. KEITH: I just have a question. Really 
because it seems to me that the way you have established 
this, it would be, you could meet all the objections 
which you are raising by simply having it possible for the 
Counties to move ahead in some way stipulated here, and 
if the State, following your own philosophy, didn't care 
for that, and as you say, didn't set up what the State 
considered a region, leaving out some part .that they didn't 
want, et cetera, why couldn't the State just override, 
and this would get you out of the trap of waiting for 40 
years until that State Legislature defines the region for 
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MR. ENEY: Let me answer you in two sentences. 
The language to carry that out, that purpose out, has 
been drafted, has been considered by the Commission, has 
been rejected by a majority. Secondly, the reason the 
majority rejected it was because the feeling was that the 
Counties ought to be given a chance, with as broad a grant 
of authority to solve the problem, and don't permit 
regional governments to come into being, except with the 
initial blessing of the Legislature. 

DR. KEITH: I have never been a member of the 



majority . 



MR. SONDHEIM: I would simply ask Mr. Humes for 



a statement. 

MR. HUMES: It is not necessary for me to 
point out that my point of view does not necessarily re- 
flect that one. I find myself completely in agreement 
with Bill Colman in terms of the short Constitution. I 
recognize the temptation, whatever our particular point 
in various things, local government or otherwise, to try 
to spell something out, but I think the example which has 
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brief and simple, is the one that is the most flexible 
over the long run. Bill, I want to take this opportunity 
to support your point, even recognizing the temptation and 
trying to spell it out more completely. 

We mentioned the apparent alternative to a 
regional government and regional authorities. I think 
one alternative we haven* t. really explored or even looked 
at very much is one which Dr. Gulick mentioned and had a 
lot to do with starting the New York area; the concept 
of a council of governments, and I think we have seen in 
the Washington area the extent to which this can be 
developed into being an instrument of the local govern- 
ments, which can have some power granted that its powers 
to a certain extent stressed, because the Federal govern- 
ment says, We won't give funds for a certain project unless 
the regional body has given approval. I think the pas- 
sage of the new act, effective July 1 of next year, which 
has more power than this, which means it is a more matur- 
ing organization. I think Victor Jones spoke of this 
earlier. 1 come back to the problem of no matter what 
those of us who are very concerned and recognize the 



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problems of the future think or do, to try to determine 
exactly how this will be, to determine in our own minds 
this should be a representative government, and you can have 
two kinds of representative, I would say one is represen- 
tative, elected officials of the region are running it, 
but to set up a regional government, I am afraid that if 
you have this in the Constitution, there are many and 
Baltimore County is full of them, as you say by some of 
the charter issues that were voted down, excuse me, some 
of the bills that were taken to referendum in the last 
election, who, the very concept of regional government 
is so anathema that they vote against the whole Consti- 
tution. This is a practical consideration that I think 
we should weigh carefully which is one reason I come 
back to Bill's suggestion, because I think that would 
get through and you would have the thing open and go 
through from there , but if you put this in, I am afraid 
we not only vote it down, but you sort of shut down the 
concept of regional government for another two decades. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Judge Northrop? 

JUDGE NORTHROP: May I say something? I think 



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1 the criticism in connection with the legislative powers 

2 to form the boundaries is really not a great hurdle for 

3 this reason: Under 11.07, the type of thing we have 

4 operating in the Washington area Council of Governments, 

5 it is in existence and goes along. As a practical 

6 political fact of life, once these things of this kind go 

7 along, where the two governments are cooperating and 

8 actually can share costs, et cetera, by taxing their 

9 various entities, wftich they have power to do, and then 

10 -it moves into regional government, there is no legis- 

11 lator who is not going to go down to Annapolis and 

12 actually vote for Prince Georges and Montgomery County 

13 to enter into this thing because they are County govern- 

14 ments and their officials run on the same ticket, and 

15 they are for this regional enterprise, and that is the way 

16 these things will really come about, through the back 

17 door rather than the front door, and the Legislature it 

18 seems to me, should certainly retain the power to estab- 

19 lish the boundaries, and they are going to do it . I don't 

I 

20 think there is any question but what they will do it. V, T e 

: ' had a fight in the Legislature in reference to the intcr- 



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state compact, but the Senator, who is my opposite number 
from Prince Georges, was the only individual in that 
whole County who stood against the interstate compact. 
His County Commissioners wanted it, delegates wanted it, 
and it may have been on a personal basis, I don't know, 
but 1 got it through by one vote, and if it had come 
down to the wire, the people who did not vote on it would 
have voted along with me, but as a practical proposition, 
I think any group of governments could get together in 
Maryland and cooperate on the basis as set out in 11.07; 
they will eventually form a region and the boundaries are 
bound to come through the Legislature and the Legislature 
will enact them. Furthermore, you have a reconstituted 
Legislature or reapportioned. It has been reapportioned. 
I think that the authorities should certainly be amended. 
I think it would be a very difficult problem to draft it 
otherwise, and my own belief is that these regional 
governments will come about through 11.07 and boundaries 
that are incidental will follow the powers that exist 
by virtue of the cooperation that is permitted under 
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MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you. Senator Hughes, I 
think it should be said that Senator Hughes' first name 
is Harry, not Cooper, as many people seem to think. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I agree with Judge Northrop. 
I know that our image is not too good in the Legislature, 
but apparently people are getting concerned about it. 
I have hopes that it will improve, so I do feel that there 
are some overriding issues in forming these regional 
governments that should be considered by the Legislature. 
I agree that, I don't believe the Legislature is going 
to sit on its hands for 40 years, if there is pressure 
from the region to do this; the representatives of the 
Legislature there are going to respond to that pressure 
the same as the County Council or anyone else will. 

I would like to ask one question. I don't know 
whether it has been brought up or not . We talked a lot 
about referendum. What is being done in the Constitution, 
Mr. Eney, about the right to petition any matter to 
referendum? 

MR. ENEY: There is a referendum provision in 
the Constitution we propose. There is not a right to 



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1 petition any matter to referendum. There are limitations; 

* one that might particularly interest you would be reap- 

3 portionment or redistrict ing is not subject to it. 

4 SENATOR HUGHES: The bridge is in. 

5 Everyone, all the experts seem to agree that 

* this should be flexible, this Constitution, and brief as 
' possible, and maybe I, like Mr. Clagett, only more so, 

am confused. Could we get some expression as to whether 



8 



9 this document here is flexible enough? I know we have 



10 



had a couple of suggestions, but Dr. Gulick, do you think 



this document is flexible enough as now drawn? 

J: DR. GULICK: I think it is flexible enough 

** except with reference to the classification provision. 

14 MR. SONDHEIM: The City of Baltimore wants to 

15 say something. 

16 MR. BENTON: Having had a few minutes to re- 
*' fleet on the issue, I would like to join Dr. Keith and 
1® the minority group. I feel that the absolute power to 
^ 9 fix boundaries should be vested with the General Assembly, 

as it might in this document. However, for two reasons 
I feel that the governing bodies should also be able to 



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form a regional government, the government, however, not 
to become effective until perhaps 12 or 18 months after 
the action has been taken by the governing bodies, and this 
would give the State Legislature the opportunity to veto trie 
action of the governing body, if, in fact, they felt such 
was to the best interests of the State. 

This enables a local government to take 
action, whereas the State Legislature may not, and secondly, 
it would seem to me so far as assailability of the docu- 
ment is concerned, that it might be as set forth. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Dr. Gulick, you mentioned yes- 
terday, or suggested, that the classification system that 
is proposed in the document that has been submitted here 
by the Constitutional Convention Commission is too narrow 
or too rigid and restrictive, especially with respect 
to this matter of classification which you mentioned just 
a moment ago again. 

Can you suggest some way of accomplishing the 
result that the Commission wishes to achieve, namely, 
to avoid the exemption of Counties which at the same time 
would not be restrictive as you think the method of 



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1 classification is? 

2 DR. GULICK: I am inclined to think that the 

3 method of classification has to be used, but that the 

4 classification cannot be worked out without a scries of 

5 hypothetical test cases, and it might very well end up 

6 that the most flexible from the standpoint of giving 

7 protection and making available the use of classification 

8 for flexibility is one that is based on population, 

9 because of the particular nature of the conflicts that 

10 exist here in the State. 

11 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Clagett? 

12 MR. CLAGETT: If you did that, Dr. Gulick, you 

13 would still end up with five classifications, and that 

14 is one of the reasons, or one of the considerations 

15 for the more or less arbitrary selection of that limit. 

16 It was using the classification, I mean the population 
IV criteria. 

18 DR. GULICK: All of the techniques that have 

19 been used to date failed in all States, so I would think 

20 that in order to deal with your situation, you had better 

21 make a very simple and limited classification. 

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MR CLAGETT: Are you aware that actually our 
present Constitution has a provision for classification, 
and it has never been used? 

DR. GULICK: It never worked, yes. 

MR. CLAGETT: One further thought. We did not 
want to give the Legislature a path through that woods 
that you are speaking about right back to local legisla- 
tion by having 24 classifications. 

DR. GULICK: Quite right. That is why I say 
that the more I have thought about this and the more I 
have listened and learned, the more satisfied I am with 
the general path you have taken here, but I think that 
the only waythat you could test this out would be to 
think of a series of hypothetical cases and see what other 
types of classification you can utilize that preserve and 
protect the institutions you want to preserve and that ^ 
tend to create action by the broadest possible general 
laws that are not designed specifically for narrow politico 
advantage . 

MR. CLAGETT: I would like to ask one other 
question since we are on this: What do you think of the 



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method of classification presently in the Constitution, 




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more or less, and that is two Counties being able to 




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pass a general law? 




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DR. GULICK: Too narrow. 




5 


MR. BROOKS: It is not the structure, I gather. 




6 


To shorten this, I gather your objection is to the 




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provision that other criteria might be used in population. 




8 


DR. GULICK: I think that introduces some 




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added problems that you cannot think through unless you 




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draw up some sample provisions and just see where you 




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land . 




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MR. BROOKS: But I am correct in saying the 




13 


whole scope of your concern is that provision for other 




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criteria in population, is that correct? 




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DR. GULICK: I guess so, yes. I will say Yes. 




16 


MR. CLAGETT: A question there: How could you 




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have regions created? 




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DR. GULICK: By using your other powers, and 




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by general State action. 




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MR. BROOKS: And that provision is in this 




21 


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DR. GULICK: This exclusion of action relates 
to the structure powers, boundaries of local governments, 
not the activities of the State. 

MR. ENEY: Dr. Gulick, may I make one comment, 
and perhaps trigger you to make a reply: The Committee 
is charged specifically with responsibility for this 
Article, and the Commission as a whole did think of various 
kinds of classifications which could be used in Maryland. 
The difficulty was we ended up with too many oysters, 
chickens, farming, urban, rural, water waste, and Mr. 
Marbury's Patapsco River Valley, for instance, and we 
ended up with a feeling that you could have almost 
infinite varieties of classifications. The decision to 
limit it to five and no more than one classification at 
any one time was purely arbitrary, but picked out merely 
as a way to get something less than 24. 

DR. GULICK: But the fact that there are so 
many possibilities and that you have picked out just a 
few here, and thatyou have put the limit of not more than 
one classification at a given time indicates the difficul- 
ties you are headed into when you accept any classifica- 
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a limit on the honesty of the effort of general legis- 
lation in order to get out of the Legislature the 
business of having as the substitute Council, County 
Board and everything else to pass all kinds of special 
legislation, and you pick a device with some very in- 
definite language which has not been tried, and you are 
writing it into the Constitution. 

DR. KEITH: Just a piece of information, 
Mr. Chairman. I believe Ohio has four, no more than four 
classifications, and they did run into some real trouble 
with it, I understand. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Colman? 

MR. COLMAN : I will express probably a minority 
view here. I am sure it is a minority view, but I would 
agree with Dr. Gulick that this classification thing, in 
a document, is too restrictive. In my opinion, there 
are two things in the document that are too restrictive, 
one the classification thing and the other Section 11.02. 
On the classification thing, my proposal or suggestion 
would be that get along without a classification system. 
Dr. Gulick has said it has never worked in the United 



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States. It hasn't worked in Maryland. Secondly, you 
want to preserve in this day and age, you want to pre- 
serve the Legislature, the flexibility to legislate 
with regard to the structure and form of local government 
as necessary to deal with these metropolitan problems, 
and you are restricting and putting handcuffs on the 
Legislature in dealing with the burgeoning metropolitan 
problem when you write in any kind of a classification 
requirement into your constitutional document. 

MR. CLAGETT: But take the reverse of that, 
if you please. How much are you handcuffing the Legis- 
lature when you place that burden upon them? 

MR. COLMAN: I don't think you are handcuffing 
the Legislature, or you are not placing the burden upon 
them necessarily, because you, in this document, you are 
saying that County governments shall have all powers 
whatever that are not preempted or reserved by the State, 
so you are giving the local government here plenty of 
power to deal with things that it can deal with. Now, 
if it wants to march into the Legislature and ask for 
some kind of an act, then I think that has to be its 



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1 privilege, and I think that no matter how much you try, 

2 the Legislature still is going to try to evade a classi- 

3 fication system in the Constitution because from time 

4 to time, they will have to. They will have to evade it, 

5 in order to meet an unforeseen problem of some kind that 

6 comes up in one of the metropolitan areas. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: I would only make this comment. 

8 Ten to twelve years from now when we have gotten away 

9 from public local laws being enacted by the Legislature, 

10 I would agree with you. 

11 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Further comments on this ques- 

12 tion of classification? There are a number of hands up. 

13 MR. HUMES: I would like to ask Dr. Gulick, 

14 what was the original purpose of classification? Is there 

15 any reason for classifications at all? 

16 DR. GULICK: Oh, yes. 

17 MR. HUMES: What is it? 

18 . DR. GULICK: That legislation, to be effective, 

19 has to relate itself to the problem with which it is 
c'C dealing, and there are many situations in which the prob" 

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economic conditions, and therefore general legislation, 
honest general legislation, actually only applies to a 
small part of the State. Nov;, the Port Authority is a 
good example, where the restriction is geographic. All 
legislation with regard to watersheds can be related to 
watershed areas. We don't know yet what the areas are 
that pollution covers. 

MR. HUMES: Could I add one thing? One of the 
things I thought was excellent, and I think the Commis- 
sion can't be complimented too much, is the fact that they 
are thinking in terms of broad grant of power, they are 
thinking in terms of joint exercise of power, the reversal 
of this rule. My question is premised on that factor. 
If this is done, I understand, if you have a specific 
giving of power, then I very well understand the need of 
classification of Counties, but if you do have a broad 
grant, then I don't quite understand the need for it. 

DR. GULICK: Then you answer this. How do you 
stop the present action in this State and in seme other 
States of legislative action with regard to purely local 
matters? Frequently, they are almost executive matters 



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that never should be in any legislative body. 

MR. HUMES: I am completely in agreement. My 
thought is, you have no classification and whatever is 
passed is for the whole State. 

DR. GULICK: No. What happens is, if there 
is no restriction on classification, then the Legislature 
is free to introduce any it wishes . The chaos in the 
legislation has been terrible -- bad legislation. The 
effort to substitute the State Legislatme for the local 
body, and the cluttering of the State legislative mill 
so that it can't deal with the major problems of the 
State, it is just filled up with bills, and then the 
members of committees, not acting on a Statewide basis, 
because they are logrolling a lot of straight local things, 
salary increases, pensions, zoning matters, all kind of 
things . 

MR. HUMES: I think we all completely agree on 
that. Can't you take care of it by saying that there is 
no local legislation, legislation granting powers to the 
Counties have to be Statewide? 

DR. GULICK: It hasn't worked. 



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1 DR. JONES: That would certainly be a limita- 

2 tion upon legislative power. 

3 DR. KRAUSHAAR: Mr. Colman? 

4 MR. COLMAN: I think, Mr. Chairman, part of 

5 the reason or a goodly part of the reason for the condi- 

6 tions that Dr. Gulick describes is that local governments 

7 have lacked power to deal with things. We have taken 

8 care of that in this document. You have got a provision 

9 in here that gives a complete grant of power to County 

10 government, so for whatever part of the reason for this 

11 flood of legislation that has had its roots in the lack 

12 of local powers, you are taking care of heie by giving 

13 local governments the power to act. 

14 DR. KEITH: On this point, you do give a sub- 

15 stantial local power , and this is your whole objective, 

16 but also the fear, and I expressed this yesterday, the 

17 fear I have had is that the Legislature also can move 

18 into any of this area at any time, and with unclassified 

19 legislation could just nitpick you to death. I think 

20 your problem is when you have turned this thing on its 

21 head and given all power locally, you have to have some 



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form of making the Legislature understand that when it 
acts, you really do anticipate that it will act in a rathe 
general fashion, rather than nitpicking you to get with 
private or local bills. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: Gentlemen, the hour is past 
a quarter of one, and we have been exerting our higher 
powers and perhaps we should now tend to the lov:er juices. 
Let's adjourn for lunch at the Alumnae House. 
I think it might be wise for us to speed through this a 
little more rapidly today so that we could begin our 
session, say by 2 o'clock, and thus hope for an earlier 
time of adjournment. 

(Whereupon the Conference adjourned for lunch 
at 2:45 p.m., to reconvene at 2 o'clock p.m. of the same 
day c ) 



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1 DR. KRAUSHAAR: We have a number of clean-up 

2 questions, various questions that have come up from time 

3 to time to which we have addressed ourselves just in 

4 passing but which seem to deserve a little more attention. 

5 With your indulgence, we will go at those, and then 

6 promise you we shall wind up at 3:30. Walter, I think 

7 you have one to start with. 

8 MR. SONDHEIM: I have a couple of them. I 

9 am a bad one to suggest this, the president made a 

10 crack about me yesterday, he is right, that is that 

11 we exercise some kind of restraint in answering questions 

12 so far as time is concerned. I think each of these 

13 is import tint and we would like to have as many as 

14 possible here when the questions are answered. I have 

15 lots of things to say which I haven't said. I will have 

16 to have a session with Mr. Eney. 

17 Mr. Benton has asked for reaction from the 

18 people were asked before, Senator Hughes isn't here, but 

19 we could ask Mrs. Spellman and Mr. Humes for reaction to 

20 the suggestion he made, perhaps anyone else who might 
51 want to react to it. The suggestion he made was sort of 



Court Reporter/ 



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1 a compromise that regional government might be established 

2 by action of local units acting jointly, subject to the 

3 veto power of the Legislature to be exercised within a 

4 specified period of time, say eighteen months . I just 

5 on behalf of Mr. Benton will ask Mrs. Spellman if she 

6 would like to comment on that. 

MRS. SPELLMAN: This would take care of the 

fear Dr. Keith had that perhaps the Legislature would 

9 sit on its hands for forty years not getting around to 

10 i establishing the boundaries. The needs of the counties 

|i 

11 are often recognized right there within the counties. 

12 Therefore, they could initiate the action. The eighteen 

13 month period, I asked Mr. Benton about that, would give 

14 the Legislature the time to act. If it were net in the 

15 best interests of the state to have the counties form 

16 this regional government, then the Legislature would have 

17 enough time to act upon it. I would say that this is 

18 I a very good suggestion. 

19 I would, if I may, while I do have the floor, 

20 like to point out there have been considerable misunder- 
standings between the differences in regional governments 



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1 and the intrastate intergovernmental jurisdictions as 

2 covered by 11.07. Intrastate intergovernmental juris- 

3 dictions are the kinds of things we are operating with 
at present. These are the arrangements that can be made 

5 on a bi-county or tri-county or what have you level. 

6 There has been discussion about giving these kinds of 
agencies or authorities taxing powers. 

I would like to say at this point to me 
this has all kinds of terrible connotations. These sorts 

10 of creatures really ought to come under the governing 

i 

11 boards within the counties and should be controlled by 

12 them and their functions should be coordinated by the 

13 local governing body. 

14 I can see in working with these kinds of 

15 agencies that there are limitations to what they can 

16 do. So the regional government is certainly the logical 

17 next step because then you don't have the individual 

18 little local controls which can stifle the work that is 

19 being done by these agencies. 

But to have all these various different 

agencies acting as autonomous groups with taxing powers 



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would create monsters. The regional governments would 
: take care of this kind of problem. 
2 There was a question raised about whether or 

not people would find it confusing to be voting for 

5 local governmental officials, regional governmental 

6 officials and state governmental officials. But I think 
that this can be worked out with enough education. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Some of us voted for city 
9 surveyors and heaven knows what. 

10 KilS. SPELLMAN: If we can take the other slush 

i 

11 off the ballot, it would be all right. 

12 MR. SONDHEIM: Some of us don't like to 

13 refer to slush. 

14 MRS. SPELLM&N: Especially when we are 

15 slush. 

16 MR. SONDHEIM: Just when there are so irany 

17 people in political life in the room. Mr. Humes. 

IB MR. HUMES: If that could be considered a 

19 means of follow- through on Mr. Colmnn's suggestion, 

cutting it down, having this brief way of handling it, 
I would concur very completely. My own personal feeling 
is that the Council of Governments ' ap proach can probably 



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1 handle it but I think this opportunity ought to be open. 

I would concur . 
3 On Section 11.07 I understand that as meaning 

a joint exercise of pov/er, does not necessarily mean 
5 setting up a new organization. But I would strongly urge 

C that we remember that one metropolitan area of the 

state is interstate area. It ought to be not only an 

exercise of powers with other units within the state, 

but also outside the state. 
: MR SONDKEIM: What Charlie Benton is really 

11 looking for is support for his idea. I ought to ask 

12 Bennett Crain whether he has an opinion on this too 

13 because he represents a fast-growing metropolitan place. 

14 MR. CRAIN: This would give more power to the 

15 counties. I don't see any harm in it. It would be okay 

16 by Anne Arundel. 

17 MR.SONDHEIM: Charlie, you have looked to 

18 the right area for the support. Dr. Cooper. 

19 DR. COOPER; Could I see some harm in it? 

20 I am very much in accord with need for regional government 

21 or whatever you call it. The Constitution should make 



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provision to make it as easily accomplished as possible. 

On the other hand, I am very much concerned 
about a dear friend of mine spoken about yesterday, 
the guy that lived in the community all his life, saw 
many changes, opposed each of them. I think his right 
to oppose ought to be there. 

To get this down to my concern, suppose it 
is Baltimore County and Baltimore City. I live in 
Baltimore County. If you initiate this by majority vote 
of Baltimore County and BaltimoreCity, the cards are 
stacked against you. They outnumber me two to one. Just 
as I would oppose their right to annex me by a majority 
vote of Baltimore City. It seems to me the Commission 
has come up with the best possible compromise. The 
Legislature does have to initiate by establishing 
boundaries, once that's done you have three routes that 
you may take to achieve it. But at least I have been 
represented in the first move, the legislative move. 

MR. BENTON: This proposal will permit the 
Legislature to veto. 

DR. COOPER: Stopping and initiating is two 



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1 different things. 

c MR. HUMES: I also understood the governing 

bodies of jurisdictions concerned had to agree. 
MR. BENTON: That is right. 
5 MR. HUMES: Baltimore City can't put anything 

G over on Baltimore County. 

DR. COOPER: Talking about election, I haven't 
been hurt. But if it is initiated in the Legislature, I 
had my voice because I voted for people in the Legislature. 

10 MR HUMES: Also you voted for people in the 

i 

11 governing body. 

12 MR. SONDHEIM: Long as \7e have you here, it 

13 has been suggested, Dr. Cooper, v;e ask you a couple 

14 questions to v/hich you might v;ant to respond based on 

15 your experience with respect to both state and local 

16 fiscal problems. The question is: Is fiscal responsibility 

17 of the state to local governments aided or hurt by proposal 

18 to remove the State Legislature entirely from the field 

19 of local legislation. 

20 DR. COOPER: I wouldn't see why. I don't see 

21 any connection. 



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] MR. SONDHEIM: Then there is the other side 

of the coin really, the question goes on to say this. 

3 Will the counties be helped or hurt by the proposal to 

4 give them broader home rule powers? 

5 DR. COOPER: Again I don't see where they 

6 would be hurt. I think they would be helped. The question 
I have been asked a number of times, you implied it 
yesterday in your remarks, you said that if you had 
regional government now, that the legislation we proposed 

10 last year would have taken a different direction. I 

11 think that is not true. The thrust of that legislation 

12 was to do two things. Provide, one, equitable taxation, 

13 provide, two, for a condition under which the state would 

14 make its funds available wherever they might be to meet 

15 problems of people wherever they might be. 

16 if you don't have regional government , this 

17 problem of equalizing is greater. If you do develop 

18 regional government, it is less. 

I. In other words, as of now if you don't have 

'- a metropolitan area encompass ing, say , Baltimore, Anne 

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have to have a more massive state program of balancing 
these resources than if you did not. 

MR. SONDHEIM: You feel the Cooper-Hughes 
proposal in effect was flexible enough and adaptable 
enough so that it would have met these changing require- 
ments in changing form? 

DR. COOPER: Unquestionably. You might adjust 
the degree at any point but what you are trying to do, 
the problem remains the same. If you do have regions 
you will still have to balance as between the regions. 
There will be disparity in wealth between regions as 
well as between subdivisions. I see nothing incompatible. 

MR, ENEY: This is a matter we would like to 
have his opinions on. First, I would be interested to 
know What your thought would be as to the general 
attitude of the State Legislature toward fiscal aid to 
a particular subdivision, a particular county, to r-2et 
a particular problem, if we have in effect said that 
the Legislature has no longer any right and hence no 
responsibility for legislation at the local level. Would 
this in any way, do you think, tend to have the members 



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of the Legislature say that's not a state problem, you 
have to solve it yourself, or would it not have that 
effect. 

DR. COOPER: I just can't see how it would 
have that effect. If you are talking about state aid, 
we usually talk about aid for a program, not talking 
about a subdivision, talking about education, talking 
about public safety programs or a function applying to 
all people everywhere. You determine whether or not a 
region or county which we have now has the resources to 
provide for the people within that area the services 
needed. If not, the State steps in. 

I can't see why if you say they shall take 
care of their problems somebody will assume the state no 
longer has responsibility, I don't believe that would 
follow. 

MR. ENEY: The second thing I would like your" 
consent on is this. Since we are recommending the 
Constitution provide that the state cannot grant or with- 
hold powers from a particular county by action only with 
respect to that county but only on a public general law 



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basis, this would, to illustrate, make it possible for 
the State Legislature to authorize Baltimore County and 
no other county to levy income tax or earnings tax. Do 
you think this poses any particular problem so far as 
the fiscal affairs of the subdivisions are concerned? 

DR. COOPER: No, because I can't quite see 
where I would personally want them to give that kind of 
power that wasn't general in nature. It would secra to 
me any problem I have encountered or thought of would 
suggest that any taxing authority you would extend ought 
to be in the nature of a state-wide authorization. 

You say earnings tax. I have feelings in 
opposition to the earnings tax. But if you authorize 
an earnings tax, it ought to be a state-wide authoriza- 
tion, not one individually for Baltimore City. I happen 
to be opposed to earnings tax. 

MR. ENEY: Use another one, sales tax, one 
you are not opposed to. 

DR C COOPER.: Why would you not authorize 
sales tax generally with the power to impose it optional? 

MR. ENEYs That's what I thought was the 



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1 answer . 

2 DR. COOPER: This would also apply to an 

3 earnings tax. Why would you deny any subdivision the 

4 right to do this if you think it is right as long as you 

5 make it optional? 

6 MR. ENEY: You are saying from the fiscal 

7 point of view there is no necessity for the Legislature 

8 to act independently with respect to various subdivisions. 

9 DR. COOPER: That is right. 

10 MR. SAYRE: This is an ancillary question thi t 

11 has been voted upon in another part of the draft under 

12 the finance article. I would like to have had both your 

13 comments and Mr. Humes' and Dr. Gulick but I would like 

14 to have your views, Dr. Cumming, any others. In the 

15 finance article it stated an extraordinary vote, meaning 

this 

16 in /case thrae-fifths , would be required for the use 

17 of full faith and credit of the state, regional government 

18 or county government. I would like to elicit comments 

19 on that point. 

20 MR. COOPER: Say it again. 

21 MR SAYRE: Wherever the full faith and credit 



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of a county government, a regional government or the 
state government is at stake, it would require three- 
fifths vote. 

DR. COOPER: Of whom? 

MR. SAYRE: Of the governing body concerned. 
I would like to elicit comment on that type of 
extraordinary vote. 

MR. SONDHEIM: I will ask that comments be 
brief because it gets a little off the subject. We 
still have to be clock-watchers. 

MR. BENTON: Does this not have reference to 
the use of the credit of the state or any local 
subdivision for a nonpublic purpose? 

MR. SAYRE: No, assuming it is for a public 



purpose -- 



purpose 



MR. BENTON: Private organization for a public 



MR. SAYRE: Say the County Council of the 

which 
county wished to have a bond issue /involved full faith 

and credit of that county. To be able to float it would 

require three-fifths majority of the governing body or 



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1 any other method. Submitting a referendum would also 

2 require three-fifths majority. 

3 DR. COOPER: I am not sure I understand why 
« it should be there. At the present time if the state 

5 wants to obligate full faith and credit, 1 presume 

6 the Constitution would allow that. You vote on a bond 

7 bill, you obligate full faith and credit of the state. 

8 Why do you want to increase that? First question 1 would 

9 raise is there seems to have been no serious problem in 
the past on this particular thing. 

H Then I am not so sure when you are talking 

** about local governments in your present charter you have 

13 various arrangements with respect to this. In Baltimore 

14 City what does it take now, a simple majority of voters. 

15 MRS. HOFFMAN: Authorization of General 

16 Assembly, simple majority, then referendum to the 

17 people. 

18 MR. BENTON: Plus ordinance of the Council. 

19 DR. COOPER: Somebody picks an arbitrary number 

20 and I don't know why. 

21 MR. SAYRE: Just that an extraordinary majority 



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1 is required. 

c c DR. CHUTE: In one state with which I am 

3 familiar the Constitution provided that state bonds 

4 would have to have a special majority, I think two- thirds 

5 vote, or 66 2/3 per cent. Bonds were issued and received 
more than 66 2/3 per cent. Then in the age of building 
highways, it was decided a state highway bond issue 
would be desirable and perhaps you couldn't get 66 2/3 

9 per cent of the voters in favor. Various people put 

10 their heads together and prepared an amendment to the 

11 Constitution. The amendment got a majority vote but 

12 inside the amendment was the proviso for a bond issue. 

13 This was taken to the court. The court said this is 

14 perfectly satisfactory. The special majority vanished. 

15 MR. SONDHEIM: On the record for a suggestion 

16 in case this goes in. 

17 MR. SARBANES: I am not clear on one aspect 

18 of Mr. Sayre's question. There is Section 11.04 on 

19 this draft here talking about this three-fifths majority 

20 but that talks only about apparently not pledging the 
full faith and credit of any individual association or 
corporation unless a pub lic purpose is goin g to be served 

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1 If that is the provision we are talking about, 

2 it seems to me that is a different problem than the 

3 statement of his question which would be that any bond 

* indebtedness incurred directly either by the state or 

5 one of these smaller subdivisions would require an 

6 extraordinary majority. Is that what is being proposed 

* somewhere else or is it this provision that we are talking 

8 about? 

9 MR. SONDHEIM: I understand Mr. Say re to say 
the thing he was calling attention to was in a different 

H section of the suggested Constitution. 

12 MR. SAYRE: I could be mistaken. I thought 

13 it was included in the finance section inasmuch as the 

** Chairman of that Committee has proposed the motion before 

15 the Commission. Mr. Brooks, I think, might know the 

16 answer to this specifically. 

17 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Brooks. 

18 MR. BROOKS: I am not sure I follow the 
question. I think Mr. Sayre is speaking to a 
question that really arises elsehwere in the constitution"! 



10 



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2 1 draft and really doesn't concern this particular area. 



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1 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Sayre, do you mind terribly 

2 if we rule this one out because maybe you can get Mr. 

3 Eney to encourage someone to have a session on the 

4 fiscal section. 

5 DR. KRAUSHAAR: We have had with us as a 

6 participant in the seminar and conference thus far Mr. 

7 Robert F. Steadman, who has been Director of the project 

8 that has led to publication of his booklet "Modernizing 

9 Local Government." He is here with Mrs. Steadman. I 

10 would like to call on him for a few words about this 
i 

11 particular question of modernizing local government. 

12 MR. STEADMAN: Mr. Chairman, I have been 

13 sitting listening with a great deal of interest the 

14 last two days to the discussion here. The thought keeps 

15 coming to me that the State of Maryland is most fortunate 

16 in at least three ways I can think of. First of all, its 

17 system of local government does not suffer seriously from 

18 many of the worst illnesses observed in a good many parts 

19 of the country. You have a good system of local govcrn- 

20 ment on a comparative basis. Second, you are very 

21 fortunate in that you are not content with your present 



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system and are deliberately undertaking to improve it 
in certain major respects. 

3 In the third place, I think you are most 

fortunate in the intelligence and wisdom being brought 
to bear on your situation by your preparatory commission. 

C I have a point about counties that I would 

like to make. The document that some of you have seen 
was prepared by our committee after much stress and 

9 strain and struggle. It took a very strong position in 

10 ; favor of strengthening the counties, giving them a real 

11 role in the local governmental picture throughout the 

12 United States. One reason for this was that we found 

13 in Virginia and Maryland and in some other states where 

14 j comparative strength was placed in the counties they 

15 seemed to have altogether a superior system of local 

16 government as compared with those states in the Union in 

17 which so many small units and jurisdictions overlapped, 

18 with tremendous confusion. 

19 How fortunate you are in that your chief 

20 metropolitan community, the Baltimore area, is almost 

21 alone in the United States in that category in having two 



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local governments only, compared with 1100 in Chicago, 
for instance, and so on. 

How fortunate you are that the number of 
counties with less than 10,000 people is nil compared 
with 900 counties in other parts of the United States 
with less than 10,000 people. 

We came to the conclusion that a county needed 
to have about 50,000 people as a minimum for effective 
provision of services on the basis of reasonable economy 
of scale. But in a state like Maryland, which has 14 of 
its 24 units at that level or above, it may not be an 
imperative thing to press for early consolidation of 
counties of sixteen, twenty-one, 25,000 people. They 
are close enough after all to the point of economy of 
scale. But this is not the primary issue. In other 
words, it seems to me that there should be a willingness 
perhaps to grant the privilege of popular referendum, 
popular approval on the part of counties affected by 
change in boundaries. As Judge Bradley pointed out, 
that popular approval is by no means impossible to obtain 
if the subject is approached rationally and the public 



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1 The one thing I find in this whole draft 

c that I would suggest some hesitation about is the absence 

3 of that provision for a referendum for consolidation 

of counties. The main reason for consolidation anyway 
the 
5 is to get at/situation of urban or metropolitan 

G communities such as here, common action dealing with 

common problems. That provision is made very effective, 
it seems to me, in this arrangement that is presented. 

9 ! The reversal of Dillon's Rule by unanimous 

I 

10 j consent strikes me as one of the finest features of this 

11 proposal. The means that are suggested for stopping 

12 this incredible kind of legislation for local units of 

13 government may not be precisely the right one but 

14 certainly the objective is clear. The willingness to come 

15 to grips with the metropolitan area situation is very 

16 laudable. 

17 Unless specific provis ion is made and sug- 

18 gested in a document like this, I doubt that you are 

19 going to get very prompt action in moving in the direction 
- that is outlined. There is enough flexibility in all 
21 that for action to achieve the end result. 



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I certainly trust there will be no acceptance 
of the idea that you should deliberately seek to create 
another lower level of government, municipal government, 
to wit, within those counties you have which is exactly 
the source of the greatest confusion and difficulty in 
local governments in most parts of the country. 

The distinction between administration 
action, which needs to be on a scale county-wide in order 
to be effective, and small units, for purposes of 
discussion and recommendation of policy was taken up in 
our policy statement. There is a page on the subject of 
neighborhood districts. We think the point made by 
Dr. Norton and others has great merit, need for partici- 
pation. The idea you should have small units of 2500 
or less, I think the idea a unit that small can function 
effectively in the modern world in an administrative 
sense is from our point of view not tenable. 

So I would conclude by saying that I want 
to congratulate people of Maryland in their approach to 
this thing. 1 think there is a splendid document before 
you for consideration. The job of a group like this is 



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a critical job, a job to provide critique, it is impor- 
tant. I hope in the midst of the critique we don't lose 
sight of the proposition this would represent a 
tremendous forward step in the State of Maryland if 

5 accepted. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: Before he sits down, he 
answered one of my questions. That is with respect to 
municipalities. The other question is this. The Committee 
debated a long time and it was quite a difficult decision 
to arrive at. Namely, to provide for the grant of 

11 power to the county government through the Constitution 

12 rather than through the General Assembly. 

13 In your article, or your pamphlet, if I 
14- recall correctly you recommend the power to county 

15 governments be through the General Assembly. 

16 Establishment of constitutional conventions 

17 does deal with this. We wanted the grant to go from the 

18 state to counties. Many state constitutions prevent 

19 the assembly from giving such powers. Our concern was 

20 to break through that barrier, the absolute barrier in 
the state constitution, against the grant of adequate 



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1 local pov;ers against the authority to revise their 

2 local governments along modern lines internally. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Then you agree in having 

* broad grant of powers to counties through constitution 

5 rather than from the General Assembly? 

6 MR. STEADMAN: I think personally that is an 

7 improvement and I am sure our committee had in mind the 

8 concept that that would be completely satisfactory. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: Thank you. 

10 MR. STEADMAN: This is not a staff document. 
H This document was produced by this committee for 
** economic development. Our trustees are leading business- 
es m en with a few university presidents in the group, with 

14 a good many academic advisers assisting in the process. 

15 it is not an individual proposition. This is a joint 

16 conclusion that these people reached with practical 

17 unanimity after a long period of study. 

18 MR. SONDHEIM: Mr. Briley, one of the people 

19 here, suggested you might like to talk a couple minutes 
on the question of the reduced tax rate and the extent 



20 



21 to which you feel this was influenced somewhat by the 



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consolidation. 



DR. KRAUSHAAR: Reduced tax rate and other 



miracles. 



MR. SONDHEIM: I think particularly with 
emphasis on the extent to which you feel it resulted from 
the action that was taken. 

MR. BRILEY: I can't say that the reduction 
came principally from the combining of the governments. 
However, it was a factor. We had a study made on our 
executive and administrative costs that were duplicated 
in the city and county departments. One consultant 
said we are saving about $400,000 a year, another says. 
$900,000 a year, on executive and administrative expendi- 
tures. Principally how this came about, this is the old 
downtown area. We took libraries and parks and several 
functions that had theretofore been supported by the 
city only and which the county residents had had benefit 
from and made on a county-wide basis. We got an increased 
gross income by doing this. Likewise, we were able to 
reduce the urban service tax or old city tax. That was 
basically how this combined tax is less than in '58. 



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1 Another thing we did functionally, we took all 

water and sewer bond issues and operating funds off the 

3 tax rolls and have it financed out of revenues. 

4 MR. HUMES: 'he tax of those who live in 

5 old county has gone up. 
£ MR. BR1LEY: Yes, not substantially but to some 

degree. 

MR. BENTON: May I ask how this proposed cost 
reduction was ascertained? Did you employ a consultant 

10 for this? 

11 MR. BRILEY: I have a very good research 

12 analyst on my staff. He used the Analysts Planning 

13 Commission. We did it ourselves. 

14 MR. BENTON: The city did and the county accepted 

15 the results. 

16 MR. SONDHEIM: Dr. Marshall, I hope that answers 

17 the question you suggested. 

18 MR. YOUNG: What is the percentage of population 

19 in the two districts? 

2C MR. BRILEY: Old central city has been losing 

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] This is reversing itself now due to opening up of several 
new housing projects in the old city. 

3 MR. YOUNG: My question basically is whether 

4 or not the vote inside or out controls the situation. 

5 MR. BRILEY: No. To adopt our charter is 

6 required a vote of people outside the city and a vote 
of the people who are inside the city. It required a 
majority vote of both groups. 

MR. YOUNG: I mean your election right now. 
-•: MR. BRILEY: My election right now is 

11 controlled more with the people outside. 

12 MR. HUMES: You were a county judge before 

13 and you ran against the former city mayor. 

14 MR. BRILEY: He didn't run. I had beat him 

15 on the charter election. He elected not to run. He 

16 elected to run this past year and I beat him again. 

17 MR. SONDHEIM: Thank you, Mayor Briley, very 

18 much. 

19 Dr. Bard, I remember you said you had soir.e- 
2C thing you wanted to say. 
21 DR. BARD: I will pass for the matter of 



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saving time. I think my comments were related to 
peripheral aspects of the discussion. 

MR. SONDHEIM: Okay. 

DR. KRAUSHAAR: I must say I approached this 
conference without any specialized knowledge of the 
subject matter that was to be discussed. I have been, 
I think, among the most active learners in it. But it 
impresses me that coming as more or less a private citizen 
to a very large question, that one of the topics which 
we have grazed on occasionally but have not really 
discussed in any depth, yet one I think quite vital for 
the success of this whole project when you consider 
this now must go before a Constitutional Convention, then 
eventually it has to be voted on, and the electorate as 
a whole has to understand it and has to be persuaded 
that this is a wise step. Something that Dr. Chute 
said fairly early in the discussion about the things 
that have to be kept in mind in gaining acceptance for 
a constitutional revision impressed me. I ask him, 
therefore, if he would enlarge on this a little bit. 
I think he also has an article with him of which he has 



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1 copies for distribution if you do not already have them. 

2 Dr. Chute. 

3 DR. CHUTE: This conference has properly been 

4 concerned with matters of content of the constitution 

5 and particularly with the proposed article on local 

6 government. We have had very high level discussion, but 

7 you can see from the number of questions that have been 

8 shot back and forth here that all is not clear to prominent 

9 lawyers and well informed citizens. 

j 

10 What happens when you give a draft of a 

11 constitution to the man in the street, the voter? He 

12 is going to have not only some of the questions you have 

13 but probably a great many fears that you don't have of 

14 possible interpretations of this work. 

15 There are ways to fight this. It is through 

16 a good public relations program. It seems to me essential 

17 to recognize that this public relations program as the 

18 strategy and tactics of getting a good constitution 

19 adopted has to go along hand in hand with the writing of 

20 the constitution. 

21 What I am saying is I think it is a mistake 



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1 to draft a very good constitution and then after it is 

: in final form employ some public relations expert and 

3 say now explain it to everyone in the next three months 

4 before the election. It is too late for that. Things 

5 have to be dove- tailed. I don't think you can employ a 

6 public relations man in the beginning and say your field 

7 is public relations and don't concern yourself with 

8 matters of content and then say to the prominent experts 

9 concern yourselves with content and don't think about 

i 

10 ! how this will be interpreted by the public. The two 
j 

11 have to be worked together as you move along. 

12 Yesterday there was reference to the fact that 

13 a constitution of Kentucky failed at the polls. I know 

14 nothing about its merits. We had the proposed constitu- 

15 tion of Michigan which was adopted by a rather narrow 

16 margin, a margin of some 10,000 votes, which would scare 

17 me, frankly. 

18 In Missouri where we put a great deal of 

19 emphasis on this matter of public relations program and 

20 considering matters of strategy and tactics, a smaller 

21 state than Michigan, we came out with more than 120,000 



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1 votes difference between the yes and no side. 

2 There are many things that can be done to 

3 promote such a program. I have a few reprints of a little 

4 article I wrote sometime ago which I will leave here and 

5 various people have copies here and can write me. I 

6 have a supply in New York which I will be delighted to 

7 send anyone who is interested. One of the very important 

8 things, it is not always done with a new constitution, is 

9 for the convention to write something explaining to the 

10 average voter, if there is such a thing as an average 

i 

" voter, what this is all about. Very often a convention 

12 will hand out the text of this new document and say if 

13 you want to know what is in this constitution, here it 

14 is. 

15 As you can see from the conversation here in 

16 the couple days, it is not clear to people who studied 

17 it just what various sections mean. The man in the 

18 street doesn't know what is in Article 1 which has to be 

19 considered in connection with something in Article 8 

20 and Article 13 in order to get the complete picture. He 

21 is not going to stay awake nights for a long time working 



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1 this out. 

2 Some conventions and charter groups that are 

3 faced with the same problem have prefaced their report 

4 with a brief four or five or six or eight-page statement 

5 which you might view as a comment by the president of 

6 the Constitutional Convention or all the members written 

7 in answer to a friend who says, Bill, you have been 

8 working on this problem for a year, I know it is a big 

9 one, I don't have time to gather all the aspects, but can 

10 you write me a business letter of eight or ten or twelve 

11 reasons that you think are important reasons for consider- 

12 ing this as a better constitution than the one we now have? 

13 We have some samples of that type of thing. 

14 I have had enough experience to know that people can't 

15 understand it without that type document. I think of 

16 the case where a man is going to be hired to serve as 

17 an important administrative official under a new set up 

18 and this document was sent to him in the mail. He read 
i9 it on the train coming down and was completely mystified 

20 as to what his role would be if he took this new job. 

21 The reason he was mystified on this particular point was 



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they hadn't put in this little report to the voters which 
mentioned some of the important concepts and would have 

3 told him where if he took the job he would fit in. He 

4 didn't have time to dig it out. 

f In some constitutions this little report to the 

6 voters is printed inside the front cover and precedes 

the document itself, is an introduction for the layman. 

1 This is just one of a number of things. I don't want 

9 to take more time because it is not proper here. If 

10 you want to succeed, I hope you do, you will have to 

11 give some attention to this matter of strategy and 

12 tactics. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: Would that be appropriate for 

14 us to do as a Constitutional Convention Commission 

15 preceding a convention? 

16 DR. CHUTE: I would think so. I would be 

17 very definitely of that opinion. In writing new 
1: charters, this is done in Philadelphia and New York, they 
It prepare a draft charter, publish it, encourage the 
2C interested public to read it, banker, Bar Association, 
21 League of Women Voters, et cetera, come in and make 



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1 criticism. 

2 This is not usually done in connection with 

3 a new constitution but if you have a proposed draft, you 

4 can put it out and ask people to come in. You get the 

5 benefit of this review by the public. I can tell you 

6 personally that the public will come up with some very 

7 penetrating observations if my experience is any guide 
Q on things you would want to change and improve. 

9 DR. BARD: I have a question. Do you mind, 

Dr. Chute, if we refer to this as an educational program 

** rather than public relations program? I am not dealing 

12 with semantics in regard to the differentiation. I had 

13 a good deal of influence with the problem as the City 

14 f Philadelphia faced it in connection with their new 

15 charter which was a rather radical proposal you may 

16 remember. What they did in that respect was to deal with 

17 the number of publics, not just one. The documentation 

18 was in terms of the number of publics. Perhaps as an 

19 educator I am a bit sensitive to the relationship of 

20 public relations vis-a-vis education, but 1 think it is 

21 more than one approach. 



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1 DR. CHUTE: That is right. I go along with 

; that. In this reprint there is some discussion of the 

3 concept of a number of publics. If any of you who are 

not V7ith the Constitutional Commission, they will get 

[ some, if any of you want it, you can write to me at New 

C York University, 4 Washington Square, North, New York 

7 City. I have a large supply of these. This was 

8 reprinted and the demand was so great that the supply was 

9 exhausted some years ago. When Michigan was planning a 

10 constitutional convention, they asked for copies. I 

11 was then working with the Institute of Public Administra- 

12 tion in New York and the institute financed reprinting 

13 of this to meet demand. 

14 People in Tennessee and Michigan have been 

15 kind enough to say they got ideas on what to do and not 

16 to do. I don't know whether they wanted to follow what 

17 I had or the other way. I will be delighted to send copies 

18 to anyone who would like some. This is all I have left. 

19 MR. MURPHY: This particular point has given 

20 me great concern. This matter of disseminating this 

21 knowledge to the delegates and to the people. This is 



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^ supposed to be a group of brains discussing one phase of 

2 it. How could we expect, especially with the Commission 

3 who spent fourteen months on this document, then expect 

4 a group of delegates or citizens, average citizens, to 
e go over it, the work they have done in, say, four months. 
g There are two parts. First of all, delegates have to either 
rj accept or reject it. If by chance the delegates accept 
q the constitution, then we have to go back to the public 
9 to accept the recommendation of the convention. 

1Q Take one at a time. I think what you were 

11 saying there, disseminate this knowledge mostly for the 

\2 benefit of the public who is voting on the recommendation 

22 of the convention. What do we do, how do we get over to 

24 the delegates who, as I said, come there for various 

,c reasons. Some come for $50 a day and have no knowledge 

- of what you are talking about. The brains that could 

•tri afford to come there and spend the time can't afford to 



give up their time to take the $50 a day. You have two 



19 types of Individuals there. 



I take it that there is going to be informa- 



2i tion in the convention for the benefit of the laymen who 



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1 haven't got the knowledge or I have some idea that maybe 

2 the most articulate individual in the convention may be 

3 able to sell the point rather and that a good many of the 

4 delegates may depend on how well he puts his message over. 

5 Or is it possible that maybe a delegate will 

6 come there with just one personal inferiority complex 

7 about the convention and he will want to vote against the 

8 whole thing because his particular selfish point isn't 

9 in there. I am saying all these as being the types of 

10 things that give me concern about a convention voting 

11 on something that months and months of time by experts 

12 has been given to. 

13 DR. CHUTE: I think from the standpoint of 

14 informing the delegates to the convention you have to 

15 take up these questions and raise basically what is 

16 the way we should set up local governments. People 

17 like Mr. Eney and other members of the Convention Commission 

18 will have to be prepared to explain what various ways 
1? you considered and why you arrived at the one which is 

20 in your recommendation to the delegates as being superior 

21 to the others. You get the type of interchange we have 



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1 had here. 

2 You have the question of the voters, the 

3 man in the street. You look out of your office window, 
* all these people are supposed to be interested and 

5 concerned. Many of them won't get this. Of those who do, 

6 many will not understand it. They will find it very 

7 heavy going if they are not used to this type of thing. 

8 It doesn't read like a novel. You have the question of 

9 how are these people going to cast an intelligent ballot? 

10 You expect them to do it. 

11 My notion of it is, I think this has worked 

12 out, many of these people are members of organizations, 

13 members of Chambers of Commerce, League of Women Voters, 

14 labor unions, Municipal League, Teachers Association. 

15 If those responsible for preparing this in the 

16 constitutional convention recommend to each one of 

17 these organizations in the state that they set up a 

18 committee of people who are interested and qualified to 

19 consider this draft of a new constitution and conclude 

20 whether it is better than the old one and merits a 
yes vote or contrarywise, then you will have these 



21 



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1 committees, Bar Association will be an important one, 

2 who can meet night after night, they are the type of 

3 people who are interested, can deal with it, perhaps 

4 have had experience. You will get an informed judgment. 

5 This carries some weight with the members of 

6 the organization. In one state I know of the editorials 

7 before election said what organizations in the state 

8 favor the adoption of the constitution. They listed them 

9 all. It was a long, long list. Which organizations 

10 opposed. There wasn't one state-wide organization. 

11 That just didn't happen. It was part of this 

12 planned policy of education, if you want to call it that, 

13 in which people were urged to take an interest and come 

14 forward and make alternative suggestions. They were 

15 aware this had been given close attention and sincere 

16 concern of the delegates. They did what they thought 

17 honestly was the best in view of the circumstances in, 

18 say, Maryland. 

19 It is hard for a layman who can't read or 

20 won't read or can't understand to object to the thrust 

21 of this argument that all of the big organizations in the 



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1 state, whether they are on opposite sides of the fence 

2 in the sense of businessmen and labor or any other 

3 group, all conclude that this is deserving of a yes 

4 vote. In a sense, this is representative government of 

5 an informal type through their own association. 

6 I say this because I don't thi.nk it is possible 

7 to interest a lot of laymen in a document like this. 

8 It can't be done. It is not readable or comprehensible 

i 

9 to many of them. Yet they want to do a good job for their 

10 government. They would like to have some unbiased advice 

11 from experts. If you can get enough of them to say this 

12 is good, they will say why shouldn't I vote yes? Nobody 

13 says it is bad. 

14 MR. CRAIN: Mr. Chairman, I agree whole-heartedly 

15 with Dr. Chute. I was Chairman of the Volunteer Committe 

16 in Anne Arundel County and had the obligation of running 

17 two elections. First for the election of the charter 

18 board which wewon by a five to one majority. Second 

19 election, adoption of the charter, we won just by the 

20 skin of our teeth. Ve had substantial opposition from 

21 all sorts of political places. We just barely made it. 



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1 I think this is very important because once 

2 the document is written, if it is not adopted, it is 

3 quite a waste of time. 

4 DR. BEBOUT: You probably want to get back to 

5 matters of substance before the adjournment but since 

6 this came up, I think I ought to emphasize the very 

7 great importance of what Dr. Chute said and say that 

8 you invested a great deal of time, effort, intelligence 

■ 

9 and devotion in developing what I think is an unusually 

i 

10 : good background document for the convention. It will 

! 

11 perform, I think, should perform, if properly backed 

12 up, much the same role as the report of the so-called 

13 Hendrickson Commission in New Jersey made in our 

14 constitutional convention. It raised the sights of the 

15 public generally and provided something which organizations 

16 without too many axes to grind could consider. It is none 

17 too soon, it is later than it should be, to begin to — 

18 plan for the success of the operation. You won't 

19 succeed unless you do plan for it unless it is by 

20 sheer accident or good luck and this very, very seldom 

21 happens . 



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1 There is a good deal of literature on this 

2 subject, some of which, I am sure, you have. A friend 

3 of mine and I did a paper some years ago for the 

4 Southern Political Science Association on staging a 

5 constitutiona convention in which we made the point that 

6 the way in which the convention is organized, the way 

7 it goes about its work, the way in which it relates to the 

8 public and gets the public in may have a good deal to 

9 do with the result of the convention. 

10 In New Jersey, for example, in 1947, if you 

11 look at the debates, look at the official record of the 

12 convention, published in five volumes, you will discover 

13 that more of the space is devoted to testimony by citizens 

14 and representatives of citizens organizations than to 

15 debate of the convention itself. 

16 The thing was organized so that every major 

17 subcommittee, every committee of the convention, prepared- 

18 a tentative draft of its proposal, advertised them far 

19 enough in advance to enable citizens to come to New 

20 Brunswick and get on the record. If it hadn't been for 

21 this, we might have lost the thing. 



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1 

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3 
4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

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21 



At any rate, this requires a lot of advance 
planning. I can't emphasize too strongly the importance 
of translating your document, so to speak, and the reasons 
for it into language which the layman can understand. 

Incidentally, I am not quite as low in my 
estimate of the ability of reasonably intelligent citizens 
to understand this kind of document if it is properly 
explained to them. In Alaska we put out a report to 
the people of the kind that Carlton is talking about. 
This was sent to every voter in the state. The delegates 
to the Alaska Convention, as did the delegates to the 
New Jersey Convention, all of them assumed responsibility 
for talking in their communities, on the radio, and tele- 
vision where it existed, in explanation of what they had 
done. 

All I am saying is that it has taken you a 
long time, it will take you longer to get your substantive 
report in order but you don't have too much time between 
now and the time the convention finishes business and 
you will have the vote on the document. So plan on this 
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* We would not have got a new constitution in 

2 New Jersey in '47 if between '41 and '47 we hadn't spent 

3 at least a half million dollars on public education 

* in one way or another. And if we had not had a citizens 

5 committee working, which was organized in 1941, and 

6 continued in business until 1947, representing a cross- 

7 section of all the major state-wide organizations, 
business, taxpayers, civic organizations, labor. I 

9 feel .much more confident than I do at the moment that you 

1" will get a new constitution out of this enterprise if 

H I knew that you were going to get some such citizens 

xei committee. 

13 John Keith prepared a brochure for the use 

** in Texas a good many years ago when they were thinking 

15 about a constitutional convention in which he sort of 

1^ summarized the experience in Missouri and New Jersey and 

17 some other experience, that is out of print, but if you 

18 could get a copy of it, you might find it worthwhile 

19 to reproduce it in whole or in part. 

20 Mr # CLAGETT: You can rule me out of order if 

21 you find this is going to take us too far afield but 1 

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1 really am reluctant to let the assemblage get away with- 

2 out getting a reaction to this question and it deals 

3 with the acceptability eventually by the voters. 

4 That is this. We are all aware that only 

5 four counties in the entire state now have home rule and 

6 a charter, that is, a charter form of government. 

7 Yet by our constitutional article here, 

8 Section 11, 11.05, we provide that after four years a 

9 form of charter or instrument of government will become 
10 effective in any county which hasn't theretofore adopted 
■«■■>■ one. 

12 Our thinking is, of course, that the existing 

13 County Commissioner form of government is not adequate 

14 to tike care of the broad grant of home rule powers which 

15 we have given elsewhere in the article. My question is 

16 are we right in that assumption first , and, second, what 

17 is going to be the reaction to mandating an instrument 

18 of government and imposing it upon the counties? 

19 DR. CHUTE: This is a very interesting question 

20 It has come up in connection vsith writing a new charter 

21 or new constitution. Frequently there are cynics and 



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1 politically hostile people who say I know that crowd, 

2 closed minds, so and so who is prominent in it has a 

3 closed mind. 

4 In one such group I worked with, when they 

5 issued a preliminary draft, some real errors were found 

6 in it. There was nothing to do but change them around. 

7 The group drafting it after the public hearings did 

8 change them around. As a result of the suggestions that 

9 came from interested citizens who detected this thing. 

10 I This was of great benefit. They said that 

11 fellow didn't have a closed mind after all. He was 

12 willing to recognize the mistake, they corrected it, I 

13 corrected it, I am co-author, to a certain extent, it is 

14 a much better document. I am for it. 

15 Some of these things you could well bring up, 

16 the delegates to the convention could bring up and ask 

17 people who appear before them recommending you do this 

18 or that, how would you regard a provision of this type? 

19 You may find prevailing sentiment either for your 

20 provision or against it. Your willingness to be guided by 

21 constructive suggestions, I think, would be a help here. 



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1 It doesn't make too much difference one way or the 

2 other. You want to do whatever is best. 

3 DR. BEBOUT: I am quite sure Carlton is right 

4 about that. This convention is going to have to test the 

5 market for these things before making up its mind whether 

6 to include it or modify it. 

7 It happens in New Jersey we adopted by a 

8 statute the so -called optional municipal charter lav; of 

9 1950 which is the sort of new municipal constitution for 

10 ! the state. The first draft, which was published and 

11 subjected to public hearings and public criticism, had 

12 almost the same provision you have here. In other words, 

13 it provided that if by a certain date any municipality 

14 had not adopted or at least not gone through the process 

15 of considering on its own initiative one of these optional 

16 charters, it would have one imposed upon it. 

17 There was a great hue and cry against this. 

18 The commission, which proposed this to the Legislature, 

19 decided, I think wisely, to withdraw that provision and 

20 left it completely open. 

21 Your problem here is, of course, that your 



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belief in the justification and, I suppose the work <- 
ability of the strong county government was, the strong 
powers you are giving it depend partly upon your expec- 
tation that the governments will be restructured so as 
to be competent and Judge Fordham, I think, would answer 
this by saying you notice in my draft I don't give this 
power to a county or municipality that hasn't adopted a 
new charter. 

MR. CLAGETT: We reversed that. 

DR. BEBOUT: I think this will in the end 
have to be determined partly on the basis of a political 
judgment on the part of the convention finally as to 
whether you can get by with it. I think this is 
desirable if you can get away with it. 

MR. ENEY: Could I take just a moment to come 
back to Dr. Chute's comment because it has an immediacy 
that may not be apparent to all. Let me, by way of prefae-e, 
say that, not in detail, that the Commission has from 
the very beginning had in mind the utmost publicity with 
respect to what it does. It has invited and has succeeded 
in having participation by a number of groups. 



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1 There is a very active state-wide committee 

2 of the State Bar Association and cooperating local Bar 

3 Associations, judicial conference of the state has a specie 

4 committee. There are other groups. We have been greatly 

5 disappointed in that numerous groups we invited to 

6 participate with us have not done so. We have had a 

7 great deal of testimony by public officials and private 

8 citizens on numerous issues. 

9 I think it can truthfully be said when our 

10 report is made and our draft of the constitution is 

11 published, there will not be one word in it that is new. 

12 xt will have heretofore been published perhaps not once, 

13 but many times. 

14 We have done other things and are doing 

15 other things such as with the cooperative grant under 

16 Title 1 of the Education Act, preparing film strips, 

17 showings for private groups. This deals just generally 

18 with the urgency and the problems involved in constitu- 

19 tional revision. 

20 More importantly we are now engaged in a 

21 project financed by funds from the same source of 



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1 preparing a 30-ininute film documentary to be shown on 

2 TV, the same thing. I would love to be able to discuss 

3 this with you because it is far from easy. You can't 

4 just sit down and say here is a film document. 

5 V/e have three problems. One, education of 

6 the electorate which is going to elect delegates next 

7 spring, May or June. Secondly, to educate the delegates. 

8 I use that term advisedly in the sense that all of us 

9 have been educated in the past few days no matter how 

10 much knowledge of the subject we had before. 

11 Third, to educate the public after the con- 

12 vention has come up with a document. 

13 That third thing is more than a year off but 

14 it has an immediacy before we go, we, meaning the 

15 Commission, go before the Legislature in January to 

16 ask them to provide an appropriation for the next fiscal 

17 year beginning July 1 to finance the Commission. One of 

18 the problems that we have now is this question of 

19 educating the public or publicizing results of the 

20 Convention to the public. Because that will occur in the 

21 fiscal year beginning July 1, '67, and to the extent public 



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1 funds are used they will have to be in that budget. 

2 I have two questions I want your comment on 

3 with respect to that. One, we are contemplating that 

4 the convention would finish its labors between middle of 

5 December, '67, and middle of January, '68. We are going 

6 to recommend that the vote to adopt or reject the 

7 constitution occur in the spring of '68, an interval of 

8 perhaps three months. Is this sufficient time, too long, 

9 or too short a time, to accomplish the job of acquainting 

10 the public with the contents of the new constitution? 

11 Second this involves expense. More than 

12 merely complying with formalities of publishing the 

13 constitution in fine print in the newspapers. That is a 

14 considerable item. But it involves the kind of expense 

15 that would be incurred in publishing the letter form 

16 of explanation Dr. Chute contemplated. 

17 We have also thought it desirable to have 

18 a series of explanatory pamphlets on local government, ^ 

19 on the Legislature, et cetera. These cost money. Is 

20 it proper to use public funds for this purpose? Should 

21 they be funds allocated initially to the convention, by 



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1 it expended, or is this an area where you have to rely 

2 on spontaneous citizen participation both to raise the 

3 money and do the job? Could we have your views on 

4 those two points? 

5 DR. CHUTE: On your first question, how many 

6 months did you suggest after conclusion? 

7 MR. ENEY: Three to four. 

8 DR. CHUTE: I would say four or five would 

9 be very good. A lot depends on how effective a job 

10 | you are able to do before the convention finishes its 

11 work. It seems to me in Missouri it was four or five 

12 months after the convention adjourned until the election 

13 on adoption was held. You need a good deal of time 

14 because, until the convention finishes its work, you are 

15 not sure of everything that is going to be in the document 

16 to be put before the voters. Some things may be changed 

17 at the last moment so that you need several months 

18 to discuss the constitution as it stands in its final 

19 form. 

20 On the second question as to the propriety of 

21 the Commission printing a digest or summary, in cases 



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1 I think, of this has been done. I don't believe the 

2 question has ever been raised. I think it might be 

3 raised if the description went too far afield as a 

4 campaign document as against a piece of information. 

5 One that I am thinking of, the outstanding improvements, 

6 outstanding gains in the draft of the new constitution 

7 were recited. Incidentally, this also contained an 

8 organization chart showing the organization of the new 

9 structure of government. 

10 Then at the conclusion, the question of what 

11 do you say, the Commission asked me to write it, I put 

12 it rather modestly that for these and other reasons 

13 everyone is encouraged to read the full document, but 

14 we firmly believe that the present document is a 

15 great deal better than the one under which we are now 

16 operating. 

17 The question is whether you should say we 

18 urge you vote yes but at least if you say it is a 

19 better document, this is more on the educational side 

20 and not a campaign document. You might assume since it 

21 is better, you should vote yes. 



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1 This has tremendous value because, from 

2 another standpoint when this is finished and you give it 

3 to t he paper without a press release, they will rush into 

4 print and if some peculiar event happened the day before 

5 or some reporter will look in here to see how it would 

6 be cared for under this constitution and they will get 

7 a scarehead headline on a trivial matter. Whereas, if 

8 you have this summary which is signed by the delegates 

9 to the convention, this represents their joint view, 

10 and when the papers want to print a story on it, they can 
i 

I 

11 say in the words of the convention, we believe this is 

12 better than the existing document for the following major 

13 reasons and other reasons and so forth. You have some- 

14 thing in laymen's language that represents the view of 

15 a whole group and the papers all around the state will 

16 pick this up and will give a fairer impression of the 

17 over-all picture of the document rather than some fairly 

18 minor thing that comes up because it happens to be in 

19 the news that day. 

20 I don't know of any case in which a group of 

21 this type has been denied the use of public funds to 



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1 print a summary. If it were denied then funds could be 

2 raised by private subscription, that would be a possibility 

3 In one case the group felt it was not proper 

4 to bind in with the constitution this brief summary. 

5 So it was separately printed with the result that an 

6 important man was sent the document without the summary 

7 and he couldn't make head nor tail out of it on the train, 

8 as I mentioned. The other group printed the summary, 

9 it was bound in with the pamphlet of the constitution 

10 so the two were there together and everyone it was 

11 distributed to had both, the proposed new constitution 

12 plus this over-all brief summary or report to the 

13 voters. This was done at public expense. 

14 MR. SONDHEIM: Off the record. 

15 (Discussion off the record.) 

16 DR. BEBOUT: I know of no case where a 

17 constitution convention has been called to task for using 

18 public money for public information. I know of no case 

19 either when the constitutional convention has actually 

20 advertised vote yes but I think that the people have a 

21 right to expect the delegates to a convention to say why 



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1 they think they did a good job. If they didn't think so 

2 and don't explain why it seems to me they haven't done 

3 their duty. I think it is good to bind this thing with 

4 the constitution but also it ought to be made available 

5 much more widely. 

6 The only case I know where an attempt to 

7 get out an official explanation was questioned was the 

8 late and from my point of view unlamented constitutional 

9 convention in New Jersey on reapportionment. The official 

10 ; explanation that was first prepared was dishonest, not 

11 accurate, and was too definitely slanted in favor. 

12 League of Women Voters threatened to sue the Secretary 

13 of State. They called the thing back and revised it and 

14 made it tolerably honest. I think the moral of this is 

15 be honest and accurate. 

16 The job cannot be done though entirely with 

17 public money. You can just go so far. You can use a lot 

18 of public money perfectly well. The New Jersey Convention 

19 printed the whole constitution serially in the newspapers, 

20 | not in fine print, but good, large print, along with an 

21 explanation. They used the radio. And would have used 



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1 TV if it had been around in those days and very useful. 

2 But we would never have got the constitution 
5 if that hadn't been supplemented by a very considerable 

4 citizen-financed vote yes campaign. Same way is true in 

5 Michigan which, rs you know, got its constitution by a 

6 very narrow vote. 

7 There was a strong citizens campaign run by a 

8 group of organizations including the Citizens for Michigan, 

9 League of Women Voters, the Junior Chamber of Commerce, 

10 others, which conducted an active propaganda type job. 

11 MR. SONDHEIM: You should know that tolerable 

12 honesty is not enough for the League of Women Voters 

13 in Maryland. 

14 MRS. CALLISON: Hear, hear. 

15 DR. KRAUSHAAR: The time has come to bring 

16 the conference to a close. I would like to say that the 

17 college has been very pleased and proud to have been 

18 the host for this first public step, not really the first 

19 public step because, as Mr. Eney described just a moment 

20 a go, quite a number have taken place before this. 

21 I would like particularly to express the 



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1 gratitude of the conference to those who came from a 

2 distance to serve as expertise participants, Dr. Jones, 

3 Mayor Briley, Dr. Cumming, by whom we were able to tap 

4 the experience of Toronto, Nashville Davidson, to Dr. 

5 Gulick who has departed, and Mr. Colman and Dr. Chute 

6 and Dr. Bebout and to all of you who have come here to 

7 spend this day and three-quarters with us. 

8 I could make numerous acknowledgments, I 

9 should make a few. Our greatest debt is to Vernon Eney, 

10 ! of course, who supplied us with innumerable materials 

11 for preparation and conduct of this conference and the 

12 members of his staff and of the Commission who have 

13 been in attendance.. Mrs. Katritsky who worked on this 

14 ceaselessly for the past several weeks. I w ould like 

15 to say also a word of gratitude to the members of my 

16 own staff. Mr. Harry Casey and to Miss Alice Falvey, our 

17 Director of Public Relations, and to Mrs. Dorothy Cromwell, 

18 Secretary in my office, and to all of you for coming 

19 here and participating with us these days in these 

20 sessions. 

21 I hope you have found it as worthwhile as I 



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1 


have. I feel I have been a learner throughout even though 




2 


I have been elevated to this particular position only 




3 


by ten inches above the floor. That was too high for 




4 


me. Most of all, 1 would like to express my gratitude to 




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my companion in suffering here, Walter Sondheim. Some- 




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body said, Dr. Keith isn't it, he is pretty good for a 




7 


retailer. I would say that was the understatement of the 




8 


month. Many thanks, Walter. 




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MR. MURPHY: Mr. President, I would like on 




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behalf of this assemblage to extend to you as President 




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of the college for your kind hospitality and use of the 




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facilities for conducting this affair, I would like to 




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suggest that we give him a rising vote of thanks for this 




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hospitality. 




. 15 


(Applause.) 




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(The conference adjourned at 3:40 p.m.) 








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